The Book of Red Lantern (Bleez)

[IAmBatman]

All of the Hero references are in fairly short order with no interruption, so I can't see how that'd be read as the Ravager or Bleez at all.

[johnny139]

I agree on permutation redundancy. And I see why this third marker is relevant in multi-RL matches - if Bleez steals a marker, Mera and Kara still need a way to regenerate their lost markers. But, in a formatting sense, I don't see why that's "Bleez's problem." I think it's more confusing to just tell the player to create an object that has no explicit use.

If our concern is "well, if Kara and Mera and Bleez need to be able to regrow their markers if one is stolen," isn't Zatanna also an issue, since she can remove a marker from the game permanently?

The spirit of the whole wording patch is in the right place, and I really like that - Red Lanterns have a big "not in play" marker pool that they can regenerate from. But I think it's a lot cleaner just to have one RL be slightly incapacitated (when Bleez steals your marker, your army is now one marker short - sorry, she's selfish like that.). A line that tosses an extra in the pool in a power that will never interact with that extra feels strange.

[IAmBatman]

As much as I hate to be on team naysayer, I kind of agree with johnny's take here. Zatanna was a good point too.

[Ronin]

Fwiw, I'd be totally okay with Treacherous Rage dropping that extra marker line, assuming a 'selfish' Bleez wouldn't have made a huge difference in the tests. Wouldn't have mattered in my games, I know, and if we leave it out, that pool becomes something a different design could provide. "Providing a bunch of extra stealable batteries" is something I had Rankorr doing to push pairing him with Bleez.

[IAmBatman]

I tried exploiting that strategy due to Scapey recommending it, but don't feel it would have made a huge difference in my tests.

[Scapemage]

I don't see what the issue is with this direction. We have numerous designs that create markers you might never use, but you might. Squirrel Girl comes with oodles of markers even though you might only place 3 in a game. The same goes for any unit that we include any number of markers on because the player may not use them even though they're there. I don't think Zatanna is an issue because if the marker is removed from the game it can't be regenerated no matter the version of the power that we use. Rankorr can still have a marker pool but if Bleez is on her own without a spare marker, her power is a detriment more than a benefit which defeats the purpose.


Cards are fantastic Arkham! I will ping you again when this is resolved.

[Karat]

I more or less agree with Scapey. I don't really see the issue, in either direction. We need to pick a direction so we can move forward though.

[IAmBatman]

Do designs like Squirrel Girl call out their number of starting markers or just come with them? Could we get away with coming with an extra marker here but not specifically mentioning it on the card?

[Scapemage]

We have been inconsistent in the past.
Squirrel Girl just comes with them and never mentions starting the game with X markers. M.R.D. Troopers (On Deck, not linked) call out that you start with 8 markers total for your army.
Ocean Master does not mention starting the game with markers, but lists a maximum of 6 on his card. This does however mean that Ocean Master can have a marker removed by Zatanna and have a theoretically-infinite supply to get them back from.

[Scapemage]

Additionally, Scientist Supreme has a "set aside" precedent. Her first power instructs you to set aside three glyphs.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Scapemage

Additionally, Scientist Supreme has a "set aside" precedent. Her first power instructs you to set aside three glyphs.

Yeah, I think that precedent is a good call here. I'd like to at least go with her exact "set aside" wording instead of the "set to the side" here for consistency.

You also might consider going with BLOOD OF YSMAULT 3 instead of 2 so that one power covers how many markers she gets at the start and then the treacherous power just sets one of those aside at the start of the game.

This would let her recharge up to 3 instead of 2, but if she did so she wouldn't get the other bonus effect from the treachery power, so I don't think it should shake things up too much in terms of cost. I can understand if that second suggestion feels like a bridge too far, though.

You'll have my support with at least the "to the side" to "aside" change.

[johnny139]

Other marker folks don't really specify where markers come from if they don't start on the card. I think the assumption is that you have an infinite number waiting in the wings - like if Squirrel Girl is at 999 markers, and Zatanna removes on with her power, there's no reason to think she wouldn't be able to get back to 999.