Project Pokemon Design Thread: VENUSAUR!

[White Knight]

If we were to go with Option B, I suggest the following changes:

Primal Rage
Whenever a unit inflicts a wound on this Primeape, place a Primal Rage counter on that figure's card. Whenever this Primeape attacks a figure with a Primal Rage marker on its army card, it rolls 2 additional attack dice. This Primeape must attack an enemy figure with a Primal Rage marker on it if possible.

Punishment
Before moving, you may choose a figure with a Primal Rage Marker on its army card that is not adjacent to this Primeape. This Primeape may only attack that figure this turn.

This Primeape may move an additional 2 spaces if doing so allows it to end his movement adjacent to the chosen figure. Before attacking that figure, you may change this Primeape's normal attack to Dark Type.


Reasoning
- Primal Rage avoids confusion with Charmeleon's Rage 3. Also, Primeape doesn't need to attack friendly figures with Primal Rage markers.
- Punishment allows Primeape to quickly get in contact with a ranged enemy that wounded it. (Or, for squads, Primeape can take its revenge on any squad member.) It also prevents Primeape from doing a funny dance (disengage/engage) just to attack an adjacent figure with Punishment.

[Kroz]

Originally Posted by DrAwsm

I like Option A. It's much simpler, and it would allow Primeape to be a true Fighting-type. Option B makes him seem sort of like a Dark-type who sneaks up on people who've angered him. Fighting-types should be about fighting someone face-to-face, not running about and pulling fast ones.

Here's my reasoning for the preference of Option B. Primeape is the kind of pokemon that when a someone makes him mad he attacks that person/pokemon to the exclusion of all others. That's just the way Primeape is. We have tons of fighting pokemon left to make into those melee tanks. Primeape is one ANGRY pokemon. In 1st generation he had very few fighting attacks and most of his attacks were normal and his signature moves all had to do with anger.

Option A is simpler yes, but let's not sacrifice theme for simplicity. There are many other powers out there that are MUCH more complicated. I just don't see primeape as the crowd controller but as the mano-a-mano type of pokemon.

The way his powers are explained thus far he's not the kind that sneaks around but the kind that relentlessly chases the coward the stabbed him in the back until that traitor has been brought low to the dust. He's the kind that when a ranged squad attacks him kiting will be tough.

Simplicity is great, but I think that option B is actually simple enough as it is and it doesn't sacrifice theme.

[NightSwipe]

I'm thinking Option B, although perhaps we should add a clause to Punishment to say he doesn't take leaving engagements on his way to the figure with the Primal Rage marker. Like he's pushing past everyone to get to his target.

[wulfhunter667]

Originally Posted by White Knight

If we were to go with Option B, I suggest the following changes:

Primal Rage
Whenever a unit inflicts a wound on this Primeape, place a Primal Rage counter on that figure's card. Whenever this Primeape attacks a figure with a Primal Rage marker on its army card, it rolls 2 additional attack dice. This Primeape must attack an enemy figure with a Primal Rage marker on it if possible.

Punishment
Before moving, you may choose a figure with a Primal Rage Marker on its army card that is not adjacent to this Primeape. This Primeape may only attack that figure this turn.

This Primeape may move an additional 2 spaces if doing so allows it to end his movement adjacent to the chosen figure. Before attacking that figure, you may change this Primeape's normal attack to Dark Type.


Reasoning
- Primal Rage avoids confusion with Charmeleon's Rage 3. Also, Primeape doesn't need to attack friendly figures with Primal Rage markers.
- Punishment allows Primeape to quickly get in contact with a ranged enemy that wounded it. (Or, for squads, Primeape can take its revenge on any squad member.) It also prevents Primeape from doing a funny dance (disengage/engage) just to attack an adjacent figure with Punishment.

Ugh. This is the kind of thing I was talking about. Nothing personal, WK, but I really would like to see a simple card for once, without MORE markers, you know?
Alas, Minimoose has the final say, so, when he decides, I'll get behind it.

[White Knight]

Originally Posted by wulfhunter667

Ugh. This is the kind of thing I was talking about. Nothing personal, WK, but I really would like to see a simple card for once, without MORE markers, you know?
Alas, Minimoose has the final say, so, when he decides, I'll get behind it.

No offense taken. I could live with either option A or B. I plan to have special markers for Kadabra (warning in advance--but of a much different kind), so a simple Primeape would be fine with me.

But it's up to minimoose. Whatever Primeape he prefers is OK with me.

[minimoose38]

I think option A makes him a crowd clearing tank, while option B makes him more maneuverable and strategic. I think there are many other pokemon that we could slap the powers from option A onto so we can save that combo of powers for a Machoke or something. Primal Rage and Punishment are what powers I would like move forward with.

[Kroz]

Originally Posted by minimoose38

I think option A makes him a crowd clearing tank, while option B makes him more maneuverable and strategic. I think there are many other pokemon that we could slap the powers from option A onto so we can save that combo of powers for a Machoke or something. Primal Rage and Punishment are what powers I would like move forward with.

This is probably the single biggest reason to save Option A for later.

[fiddlerjones]

I'm usually all for simplicity, but I rather like Option B. It's not overly complicated, just more complicated than A, and as previously mentioned, the powers in A could go on many other pokemon.

The only concern I have is with Primal Rage. Are you required to move Primeape to an enemy with a Primal Rage marker if one is within range? Or do you just have to attack the enemy if it's next to you?

[Kroz]

Originally Posted by White Knight

If we were to go with Option B, I suggest the following changes:

Primal Rage
Whenever a unit inflicts a wound on this Primeape, place a Primal Rage counter on that figure's card. Whenever this Primeape attacks a figure with a Primal Rage marker on its army card, it rolls 2 additional attack dice. This Primeape must attack an enemy figure with a Primal Rage marker on it if possible.

Punishment
Before moving, you may choose a figure with a Primal Rage Marker on its army card that is not adjacent to this Primeape. This Primeape may only attack that figure this turn.

This Primeape may move an additional 2 spaces if doing so allows it to end his movement adjacent to the chosen figure. Before attacking that figure, you may change this Primeape's normal attack to Dark Type.


Reasoning
- Primal Rage avoids confusion with Charmeleon's Rage 3. Also, Primeape doesn't need to attack friendly figures with Primal Rage markers.
- Punishment allows Primeape to quickly get in contact with a ranged enemy that wounded it. (Or, for squads, Primeape can take its revenge on any squad member.) It also prevents Primeape from doing a funny dance (disengage/engage) just to attack an adjacent figure with Punishment.

Originally Posted by fiddlerjones

I'm usually all for simplicity, but I rather like Option B. It's not overly complicated, just more complicated than A, and as previously mentioned, the powers in A could go on many other pokemon.

The only concern I have is with Primal Rage. Are you required to move Primeape to an enemy with a Primal Rage marker if one is within range? Or do you just have to attack the enemy if it's next to you?

The question is in the wording. Primal Rage sounds like you have to attack the adjacent pokemon that has a rage marker, but the wording for punishment makes it seem optional to move towards that figure. Perhaps a rewording is necessary.



Primal Rage
Whenever a unit inflicts a wound on this Primeape, place a Primal Rage counter on that figure's card. Whenever this Primeape attacks a figure with a Primal Rage marker on its army card, it rolls 2 additional attack dice. This Primeape must attack an enemy figure with a Primal Rage marker on it if possible.

Punishment
Before moving, you may choose a figure with a Primal Rage Marker on its army card that is not adjacent to this Primeape and in 8 clear sight spaces. This Primeape may only attack that figure this turn.

This Primeape may move an additional 2 spaces if doing so allows it to end his movement adjacent to the chosen figure. Before attacking that figure, you may change this Primeape's normal attack to Dark Type.


Additions in blue.

[minimoose38]

In my mind I had the movement bonus be optional but then if you used it, you were forced to continue with an attack. Kroz's wording defines this adequately.

[White Knight]

Primal Rage already states that you must attack a figure with a Primal Rage Marker, if possible.

The way Kroz changed the wording, if Primeape is engaged with a figure with a Primal Rage Marker on its card it must still disengage and attack another figure with a PR Marker farther away. I prefer making Punishment optional--Primeape can then choose to attack the adjacent figure, or Primeape can choose to attack the figure farther away.

Another option is to state that Primeape does not take leaving engagements when using Punishment. Then Primeape will always go towards the farther opponent first. It makes sense, since Primeape is not really thinking clearly.

The 8 clear sight spaces makes sense, but what if Primeape cannot reach the figure because of height?

[minimoose38]

Oops, I didnt see the 'you may' was crossed out. I think uncrossing that out would fix it. As for height, if the bonus move is not enough to get Primeape within range of the rage marker'd figure, he doesn't get it.