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  #85  
Old October 2nd, 2019, 03:47 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Design

Hm, I did forget about Resolute. Dodges 4th synergy, and sounds a bit more appropriate for a defensive figure anyway. I'll add it to the OP as we move into Editing.
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  #86  
Old November 8th, 2019, 11:30 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Editing

Everyone OK with moving to Editing phase (and shortly thereafter playtest)?
@All Your Pie (Pod Leader)
@Scytale (Pod Leader)
@Fakeraistlin
@lefton4ya
@Jaur0n
@The Long eared bat
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  #87  
Old November 8th, 2019, 11:54 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Editing

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  #88  
Old November 8th, 2019, 12:11 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Editing

although a little wordy for a starter set style card.

Last edited by The Long eared bat; November 8th, 2019 at 12:34 PM.
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  #89  
Old November 8th, 2019, 04:06 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Editing

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  #90  
Old November 8th, 2019, 07:01 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Long eared bat View Post
although a little wordy for a starter set style card.
Same
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  #91  
Old November 8th, 2019, 08:18 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Editing

I thought we were already in editing? Either way, from me.
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  #92  
Old November 12th, 2019, 04:10 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Editing

I started looking at Dienekes from an Editing perspective, and Tether of Logos has a number of problems to solve.

First, there are a number of problems with special movements, including interrupting interrupts like Cell Divide and movements that do not take place during any turn such as Movement Bonding. By far the easiest and best way to handle that is to limit Tether to only normal movements.

Second, there is the problem of ending a figure's movement. That's not possible if the figure is on a space where it cannot end its movement, such as when Phantom Walking through another figure. That can be solved by adding a "on a space where that figure can end its movement" clause, though that's adding another clause to an already clause-heavy power.

Third, there are timing issues with other effects that trigger off of moving onto spaces, such as Engagment Strike or molten lava. It's a little strange as a roll-off, as the Engagement Strike, molten lava roll, etc would still occur, even if the figure is moved. I think we can get around this by making Tether happen "after" the figure moves onto the space, as opposed to "moves." I think we can argue that Tether would happen after those other effects.

So here's what I have:
Quote:
TETHER OF LOGOS
After an opponent’s small or medium figure moves normally onto a space within 2 clear sight spaces of Dienekes where it can end its movement that is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below Dienekes's base for the first time in a turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 7 or higher, that figure’s movement ends and you may, if possible, immediately place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If that figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
That's getting pretty complicated... let me try something else:
Quote:
TETHER OF LOGOS
If an opponent's small or medium figure ends its movement within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes and is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below his base, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 7 or higher, place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If that figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
That makes it so that fast figures can zip past him, potentially, and it does mess with oddities like Cell Divide. But I don't think it's unreasonable, and significantly less wordy. Though we would need to rule that ending movement happens before "after moving, before attacking" powers, lest we run into a full gamut of troublesome interactions.

With this we could extend Dienekes's usefulness considerably by dropping the "opponent's" requirement.

Quote:
TETHER OF LOGOS
If a small or medium figure ends its movement within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes and is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below his base, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 7 or higher, place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If that figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
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  #93  
Old November 12th, 2019, 09:43 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Editing

If we weren't stuck with the chainfighter-style high/below wording, I might be okay with adding the necessary conditions to make the movement interruption version of the special work. The main thing I'm not happy about losing is the ability to keep even figures with Disengage tied down by grabbing them with the Tether as they leave. That's a very personal design interest on my part, though.

Otherwise, I think the revised version covers more or less what we want. 3 spaces is a lot for this kind of effect, so I'm not overly worried about the change nerfing the power level. If anything, including friendlies in who can be affected might actually be worth a small bump in points. I like the way that plays with Combat Challenge, though.

Of note is that most of the figures that can entirely zip past the affected area are already large or huge. A few medium figures have 7 or 8 move, but I don't mind that subset having a leg up here.
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  #94  
Old November 13th, 2019, 11:23 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Editing

I like the last one by @Scytale , as long as it affects things like scatter/scurry so out-of-turn moves can also get Tethered.
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  #95  
Old November 13th, 2019, 12:59 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
I like the last one by @Scytale , as long as it affects things like scatter/scurry so out-of-turn moves can also get Tethered.
It does, as well as summons and other placements. The trick is that it can only be used when a movement (of any sort) ends, which removes issues with figures being on spaces they cannot end their movement as well as removing the one-per-turn restriction. It is now possible for figures to be affected twice, such as from an after-movement movement power, but those are rare and not problematic.

It's definitely a change to the behavior of the power. If this was C3V I wouldn't blink at the conditions added to it, but the target audience here is newish players. I think it's worth at least discussing the simpler option.

The new version that allows for movement of friendly figures opens up a whole world of new uses. Run Dienekes up on a hill, then use him to pull up other figures as a passive boost. Or pull units out of engagements to relative safety. Or pull units into attacking position. Lots of possibilities, but neatly restricted by the same-level requirement.

Either way, though, I think I have to modify it to only figures that have moved at least one space. It gets messy if we try to allow moving zero spaces, especially when dealing with opponent's figures.
Quote:
TETHER OF LOGOS
If a[n opponent's] small or medium figure moves at least one space and ends its movement within 3 clear sight spaces of Dienekes, if it is no more than 3 levels above Dienekes's height or 3 levels below his base, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 7 or higher, place that figure on any same-level space adjacent to Dienekes. If the figure is engaged before it is moved by Tether of Logos, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
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  #96  
Old November 13th, 2019, 01:45 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Editing

Nice though. Only thing is people still disagree if PLACED=MOVED or not, so to clear up maybe just add "...figure [is placed] or moves at least one space and is placed or ends its movement..."

So many loopholes to close
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