|
Official Rules & FAQ's Compilation and discussion of official HeroScape Rules and Frequently Asked Questions. **Special attacks never receive any bonuses.** |
View Poll Results: How do you interpret the word "random" in these situations | |||
Players MUST always roll a dice or shuffle the order markers and without either player looking | 7 | 13.21% | |
Owner MUST shuffle/rearrange OMs but can look before the player chooses which he/she removes | 0 | 0% | |
Owner CAN shuffle/rearrange OMs and can look before the player chooses, but is not required | 11 | 20.75% | |
Owner CAN rearrange OMs but MUST do while looking before the player chooses, but is not required | 1 | 1.89% | |
Owner CANNOT shuffle/rearrange OMs before the player chooses. OMs must be placed strategically | 23 | 43.40% | |
Depends on who you play with and mood players are in, but can be decided differently each game | 11 | 20.75% | |
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
#37
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
I think a lot of times it’s gonna come down to the players and what they decide to do.
For example, I think it was the last time I was at GenCon, I had a game against The Orange Mailman. We both had Marcu so before we start the game, I said “are we going to hate each other?” At first he didn’t know what I meant. I pointed out the official ruling that we would not roll for eternal hatred when we both have him in our army. I never liked what the ruling did to Marcu vs Marcu games; this is why I brought it up. OMM is like, “oh yeah! we’re gonna hate on each other” so we play the game with eternal hatred in play, going against the rules. I was on the rules team.(still am?) I was involved in a lot of the rulings. It doesn’t mean I agree with all of them. I’m not saying that the rules should be circumvented; I’m just saying that it really shouldn’t be that hard to come to an agreement either before the event or before the game about how it will be played, official rules, Gen Con rules or otherwise. Communicate. Have fun. Last edited by Rÿchean; January 22nd, 2021 at 04:59 PM. Reason: Oh please I’m older than either of you don’t go there |
#38
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
If there were any debate at my table, I'd put it to a blind d20 roll. If there were two OMs, 1-10 would be the one on the left, and 11-20 would be the one on the right. 3 OMs? 1-6, 7-12, 13-18, (19/20 reroll). This is fair and random to me.
That said, I'd abide by whatever ruling a tournament director wanted at that tournament. Last edited by Jexik; January 24th, 2021 at 01:52 PM. |
#39
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
I voted #1, mostly agreeing with the concept of rolling a die to determine which OM is removed. That seems completely random. I honestly wouldn't care if my opponent shuffles their OMs without me looking before I pick one to remove, but if someone went all 'rules lawyer' on me, I would agree that the rule does not say that OMs should be shuffled around.
I'm shocked that #5 has as many votes as it does. I understand that OMs shouldn't really be shuffled around for any reason (that I can think of?) however an observant player could pay attention to their opponent's OM placement habits, and then pick an OM based on observations they have made - that does not qualify as random IMO. Even if a case could be made that the above is random, I don't think it is more random than a die roll. I suppose you could argue that someone can sneak a weighted D20 to influence their chances of removing a specific OM (making that outcome less random,) but weighted dice is cheating to begin with. Hashtag you suffer German suplexes equivalent to the result you roll on the D20 if you are using weighted dice. Observing your opponent's OM placement tendencies/habits isn't cheating as far as I know, but in the context of 'remove a random OM' something would need to be done about the potential for abuse. I think that a D20 roll is the 'most random' of all options in the poll. |
#40
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
Quote:
Maybe also I am too lazy for option 1 as I don't want to have to roll a die or shuffle order markers every time if it is not necessary to keep the effective randomness as people can effectively "randomize" their order markers when they place them initially, so going with option 1 would be redundant. I do note that with an infinite brain people are incapable of placing markers scientifically randomly on initial placement even if they shuffle them, but rather only "arbitrarily" (your mind has an indefinite reason as to where markers are placed) but is a close approximation to random and IMHO is matching the customary definition of random as used in most games - if you are irked that this "customary random" is not really random than I can see why you chose option 1, but IMHO is negligible and not worth the extra time and effort. But again if people forget to "randomize" (AKA arbitrarily place) initial placement I feel like I am cheating if I pay attention and don't let them randomize. Gencon ruing basically says this is not cheating as it treats participants as experienced players who must remember all powers that may come up and people must "pay the penalty" if they forget rules, similar to having to remembering Engagement Strike and as soon as your hand comes off a figure you just moved next to a Nakita Agent you get struck at Gencon and most tournaments, and if you forget to randomize your order markers you allow our opponent to take advantage of that. However I and most people are lenient at home games or tournaments with newbies to let them redo moves on Engagement Strike and randomize order markers when it matters. C3V/SoV cards @ 3/page PDF / LeftOn4ya's Customs (including Jurassic World) / Competitive Unit Alters / New? Start Here! Unit Debates REVIVED - #76 Tandros Kreel vs Torin "Today is a good day to die... but the day is not yet over"
Last edited by lefton4ya; February 4th, 2021 at 12:36 PM. |
#41
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
Quote:
In a Gencon tournament where rules are taken to the most serious degree of strict for this game I can see the reasoning to allow players to be penalized for not shuffling their markers or making their marker placement patterns easy to identify. But it is this same serious degree of strict that tells me to play to the card in the terms that "random" means as random as possible (by means of shuffling or more convenient rolling a die to add an additional level of random / redundancy). My reasoning falls back on the comparison of the Fyorlag Spiders vs any other unit having an order marker removal power. The Fyorlag Spiders' power is comparably much harder to come by, needing a full squad of spiders (with very limited survivability) to enter engagement with the same unit and rolling a 16 or higher (25% chance) to remove an order marker. I believe this level of difficulty to remove a marker warrants the omission of the word "random" from this power, ergo, if you can pull this power off take whatever order marker you want whether you figured out your opponents' marker placing habits or they just moved a couple from last round and can pull off that numbered marker. On the flip side in not as serious a tourney environment (anything other than Gencon in this case) I would be much more lenient on the rulings as the less serious tone of the day would allow for a softer touch when regarding rulings. In these cases I personally would still randomize my choice by rolling a die as to not give myself a competitive edge over my opponent regardless of event type and seriousness. This is just my personal take to follow the random rule as directed by the cards. Keep doing what you're doing, but do it better. ~Self Classic Card Scans & Tourney Map Building Requirements Excel Sheet |
#42
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
Totally agree with that line of logic and with die rolling. I definitely watch OM placement and make decisions based off it. If I can deduce your OM placement because you simply set them back up, then I'm going to pick the one I want. Die rolling is fair in my case
|
#43
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
I'm a bit surprised this topic blew up as it seems so esoteric to me.
I voted #6, which honestly seems like the only reasonable option to me. Like, do whatever you like. Obviously. If I was running a live event and someone actually called me over to judge on this issue, I'd rule #3; i.e. the owner is allowed to shuffle the OMs blindly before the other player chooses one to remove. This seems like, far and away, the more common interpretation of "random"; i.e. that it's not supposed to be a skill contest. #1 is also pure random and would be an acceptable alternative, of course; I just wouldn't rule that way because it seems like it would take longer. I'm surprised the "official" Gencon ruling would be #5 as this feels like the most inherently cut-throat approach. Granted, it's really not a big deal. That said, if people want to play it as some sort of mini-game where the one with the power tries to guess their opponent's placement patterns, and both players are enjoying that (or simply don't care) then hey, that can be fun. Online we have an "apply random numbers to the OMs" feature for these powers (so I can say "I'll remove OM 2754"), but @Dysole likes to name her OMs using different puns instead. When I played Ozymandias against her once this made for a very fun guessing game, where I had to try to guess which pun she would put on a numbered OM and which on OM X. |
#44
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
I'm surprised you don't know our real answer. I'll give you a hint: it was a two-word text in all caps from Ken...
Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
Last edited by OEAO; February 5th, 2021 at 06:56 PM. Reason: And it wasn't "HEROSCAPE CELEBRITY" or "STINGERS SUCK"... |
#45
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
Voted option 6. I've played with a wide variety of skill and levels and have no issue with seeking to make the game fun. It helps that 95% of the time I'm the GM though
For comp play though, I've no issue with you (or squidface) if you snipe an Order Marker off of me knowing fully well it was a numbered one. Especially true if I was just putting OMs in order (like I do a vast majority of the time). Really, its no different than if I focus fire a hero with 2 Order Markers on it knowing that you are going to lose at least 1 turn if that hero dies. My customs. NE Ohio Tourney - TBA SW Ohio Tourney - NHSD 550 points AotV - Colliding the minis of AotP with the world of HS. |
#46
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
Quote:
Perhaps quantifying/clarifying that would be more troublesome for me to do... but it’s how I feel about this, in a nutshell. |
#47
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
Wow...interesting discussion.
I never even thought of the word random being such a huge part of the rules for the Mind Flayer that's why I went number 5. I guess 6 is probably best but if you're truly looking for random, pull out the old D&D dice and roll a d4. If it's past round 1 and you roll a 1...it's still random and simply takes away from the value of the card or it forces you to use the Mind Flayer earlier and come up with a new strategy. That's why this game is so awesome. Just when you thought it was all right, someone made it alright. Good trades with - Porkins / xraine69 / mac122 (x2) / frylock / Ztimster (x2) and probably others I forgotten to mention...sorry. Last edited by AMIS; February 7th, 2021 at 04:58 AM. Reason: Just another Random post... |
#48
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?
Quote:
And that's perfectly fair and valid. I'd much rather have fun with the game than not, and fighting over a small mechanic at the game table is something I'd rather not bother with. My customs. NE Ohio Tourney - TBA SW Ohio Tourney - NHSD 550 points AotV - Colliding the minis of AotP with the world of HS. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What's in an Order Marker? (D1, D2, and D3 up) | Jexik | Heroscape Strategy Articles | 381 | April 5th, 2024 01:12 PM |
Order Marker | Berlinwall89 | Official Rules & FAQ's | 11 | August 24th, 2009 08:49 AM |
Random Order Markers - A Strange Order Marker Idea... | Draconious | Other Customization & HS Additions | 9 | May 22nd, 2009 04:38 PM |
Using Order Marker X as Order Marker Four | The Super Atheist | Other Customization & HS Additions | 7 | July 25th, 2007 12:50 PM |
Common Squad order marker / order of operations | manger | Official Rules & FAQ's | 4 | June 11th, 2007 08:14 AM |