The (Cheese) Gauntlet

[Vydar is the man]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Well, I don’t think MBS is that great when he’s not bonding. The reason he gets an A in my ratings is because he bonds with Romans and Death Chasers.

Further, Arkmer helps a lot in one of the toughest Dwarf matchups: Knights. 10th is bad too, but neither Arkmer nor MBS helps there. MBS really needs Raelin to compete with 10th at range. Arkmer also helps into Heavies, which is not irrelevant. I’m just not seeing a reason to take MBS over Arkmer with the current expected meta. I don’t think non-bonding MBS is generally better than Arkmer for the points anyways, and I think the upsides of Arkmer are even more important with Dwarves than with other armies.

I guess I'm undervaluing Arkmer's utility in those melee matchups. I assume you send him up to a choke point and Engagement Strike everything you can, while you develop? Is that worth the 2 OMs that it takes to get him there? Or is he ranged support? My assumption is the former, because I think MBS is better for a single range attack than Arkmer. My choice of MBS was for being able to kite pretty well in the endgame. I agree that he isn't great when not bonded but with 14 threat range, and Paralyzing Stare he is a pretty decent cleanup unit for 50 points, something that Arkmer can't achieve.

Funnily enough, I just listened to the Bonding Melee episode of Casters of Valhalla, and I feel like I'm still undervaluing those units, as if I'm still in the 2010 metagame. It doesn't help I only own 1 squad of knights.

[The_X_Marker]

This thread has really helped me in quickly setting up soloscape games during quarantine.

I've had the cheese team essentially be an "AI," similar to the Gloomhaven "AI" for enemies. While it takes a lot of the strategic depth out of the other player, and while it makes it somewhat possible to use strategy to cheat the "AI" of the game, it feels alright for just passing the time playing again.

There's 1,000 threads on X army at X point value, but this is a standout for aggregating all of the top tier armies in one place.

[vegietarian18]

For Dwarves x4, Mogrimm for 450 with one figure left I would go Marro Warriors and sit three Dwarves.

[Cleon]

^Dwarves + Q9 is really strong

I know I’m a huge Stinger fan, and I admit they’re in the mid to low end of the top tiers (hard to exactly say, since they’re so splashable, but a horde is probably closer to the low end), but I’m surprised Stinger horde+Raelin isn’t on the 500pt. or 450pt. lists. When I think of top tier cheese, Raelin+Stingers x7 comes to mind (or 6 and Isamu at 450). I concede it’s not the best army ever (before Matthias slaps me), but I still think it’s strong enough to be included. I’d stick it with the 4th Mass and 10th Reg horde categories.

It’s also a pretty tough discussion since there’s so many slight variants of top tier armies, and some of the conventionally ‘weaker’ variants might be better in particular metas (I guess that’s the overall discussion of competitive play... ). Like with the prevalence of melee nowadays, I’m pretty partial to running Charos with the 4th Mass, over more 4th Mass. But yeah, still a good idea to get a list of cheese builds to put armies to the test.

Also I don’t think Concan+PK’s x2 should be on the list......oh wait nevermind

[vegietarian18]

I think the classic Kaemon Raelin Stingers is way better than just horde Stingers. So Stingers x5, Raelin, Kaemon for 500. 7x Stingers is just overkill in my opinion, Stingers have a lot of bad matchups. What Stingers are best at is hero-killing, even without the Drain, and most armies don't have a ton of heroes you need to kill. 4x or 5x Stingers is enough to win the Greenscales matchup. Kaemon helps the Rats matchup a ton and the melee matchup a little bit. Alternatively you can even go 3x Rats 3x Stingers Kaemon Raelin for 500 which is a little low on commons but it's a nasty build.

[OrcElfArmyOne]

Originally Posted by Vydar is the man

I guess I'm undervaluing Arkmer's utility in those melee matchups. I assume you send him up to a choke point and Engagement Strike everything you can, while you develop? Is that worth the 2 OMs that it takes to get him there? Or is he ranged support? My assumption is the former, because I think MBS is better for a single range attack than Arkmer. My choice of MBS was for being able to kite pretty well in the endgame. I agree that he isn't great when not bonded but with 14 threat range, and Paralyzing Stare he is a pretty decent cleanup unit for 50 points, something that Arkmer can't achieve.

Funnily enough, I just listened to the Bonding Melee episode of Casters of Valhalla, and I feel like I'm still undervaluing those units, as if I'm still in the 2010 metagame. It doesn't help I only own 1 squad of knights.

Thanks for listening!

Well, I think most people undervalue- or, at least, underplay- bonding melee. It's really just me and Matthias (Ken) that main bonding melee at the high level tourneys.

For Arkmer, I'd just save him for the endgame against Knights/Heavies. The problem for MBS is that threat range isn't a great measurement for kiting. If he was 6 move/8 range, he'd be comically better at kiting. 6 range just isn't enough against Knights/Heavies. Arkmer has the upside of Engagement Strike and 4 attack, which gives him much better odds than MBS. I don't think MBS is a bad choice, but I think Arkmer is very underutilized.

[OrcElfArmyOne]

Originally Posted by The_X_Marker

This thread has really helped me in quickly setting up soloscape games during quarantine.

I've had the cheese team essentially be an "AI," similar to the Gloomhaven "AI" for enemies. While it takes a lot of the strategic depth out of the other player, and while it makes it somewhat possible to use strategy to cheat the "AI" of the game, it feels alright for just passing the time playing again.

There's 1,000 threads on X army at X point value, but this is a standout for aggregating all of the top tier armies in one place.

Thanks for the kind words!

As long as the dummy army is making reasonable decisions, it's not a bad way to gain some experience.

Good to hear from you after so long! Hope you're well!

[OrcElfArmyOne]

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

I think the classic Kaemon Raelin Stingers is way better than just horde Stingers. So Stingers x5, Raelin, Kaemon for 500. 7x Stingers is just overkill in my opinion, Stingers have a lot of bad matchups. What Stingers are best at is hero-killing, even without the Drain, and most armies don't have a ton of heroes you need to kill. 4x or 5x Stingers is enough to win the Greenscales matchup. Kaemon helps the Rats matchup a ton and the melee matchup a little bit. Alternatively you can even go 3x Rats 3x Stingers Kaemon Raelin for 500 which is a little low on commons but it's a nasty build.

I agree, I don't think straight Stingers is as good as mixed Stingers. Updated with those two builds, thanks!

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Maybe someone just overlooked this in editing but I didn't see any chainfighters x 16 + Warden or chainfighters x 20 for the 500 point gauntlet.

[The_X_Marker]

Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus

chainfighters x 16 + Warden or chainfighters x 20

Woah now, let's not get too crazy. These lists are supposed to be beatable, I can't think of anything that can beat that!