The Pre-SoV Workshop

[quozl]

The advantage being it's already been vetted.

[robbdaman]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

On paper sure. But as has been stated numerous times, in certain armies there's only 1-2 OMs that you wouldn't activate without Ebol. In those armies, Rygarn can be of use.

Chris also mentioned in his post that whether Ebol is the one in control of the OMs or the actual figures, simply by reading the board you can predict with 80-90% accuracy or better which figures will be activating. This is kind of where vegie's toolbox army comes in, but even as an opponent I know that if I do X, my opponent will respond with X, etc.

Again, again, again. The second we would like to stop theoryscaping and start actually testing how "broken" Ebol is, I'm all game.

I think having to take into account the idea that Ebol exists when creating future or even currently in development concepts is what would give me an extended amount of pause if I was deciding anything. There are already quite a few A+ overly powered units that are already needed to be considered when creating ideas and I think Ebol would really make it harder if he had this ability to use with everything.

The Master Manipulator idea works better given it is limited to heroes, certainly would be a much smaller hassle to have to consider at the least and as said it's a power that already exists.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by quozl

The advantage being it's already been vetted.

Sure but what if we could be open minded to trying out new things?

Shutting down a design because it reaches into deep cracks seems lazy. We are all designers. Designers experiment, fail and succeed.

I’m willing to do the hard work and have these hard discussions if people are willing to have an open mind.

If I’m being honest, I have gotten most of what I needed from this whole discussion. Clearly we haven’t made much head way as far as convincing anyone of Ebol’s power. If I need to, I am willing to pull Ebol from this discussion, run a bunch more tests, and bring him back once I’ve done so. I’m just asking that you all don’t make it a waste of my time and other’s time.

And that’s not saying don’t do your job. If Ebol swings too much in the endgame like the Catalan Mercenaries or it is impossible to balance Overload with his “optimal” armies without completely discouraging his more fun but less optimal armies or anything, by all means, please down vote or turn him down. Heck, I think the fact that he cost 80 or however many points just to do nothing but give you easier Order Marker Management could mean that higher tier armies that can make up that deficit will have a huge advantage over lower tier armies that can’t. Whatever the case is. If Ebol is tested enough to comfortably down vote for any of those reasons (or maybe something else), I’m ok to say Ebol will have run his course then. So be it.

Until then, Ebol will let all of you return to your usual business. But no worries, he’ll be back in your minds soon enough.

[Scytale]

heroscaper2010, if you're not interested in feedback, why are posting here?

A unit that provides order marker freedom to all units is not going into VC canon (from SoV or C3V), for all the reasons that have been described. It doesn't matter how balanced it is, it doesn't matter how swingy or not swingy it is, it doesn't matter what armies it does and doesn't work with. It also doesn't matter if you don't understand why (which you still don't seem to). Nor does it matter if you manage to convince every single person reading this thread. It's just not going to happen.

I'm trying to save you time and trouble. I'm not trying to discourage you as a designer. I think it's a really cool design I'd be happy to have on my table. But it doesn't have a place in VC canon.

[Sheep]

So a potential design that’s balanced can be turned down because of other potential designs?

I’m mind blown at that. I wish Raelin was never designed so that someone here could submit it to the SoV. L.M.A.O.

What a joke.

EDIT: I’m still unclear on what designs those are. Seems like any design that would be shut down because of Ebol would be shut down because of Raelin, Rats, Rygarn, Ranjit anyways. Silly.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

So a potential design that’s balanced can be turned down because of other potential designs?

It's happened many times.

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

I’m mind blown at that. I wish Raelin was never designed so that someone here could submit it to the SoV. L.M.A.O.

Raelin 1.0 would never pass SoV. Raelin 2.0, maybe nope.

[Sheep]

You wanna know something that I’ve found interesting about balance and games in general? You probably already know it.

There’s always a meta. In Heroscape, Raelin 1.0, Q9, and Rats have created most of that meta. Remove those figures and the tier below them becomes the new meta. Watch the upcoming Online VC tourney without a lot “OP” figures in it. Watch how broken figures like Microcorp and Bramcephys become.

As a designer, being unwilling to shift that meta is silly, especially when the figure is balanced more so than any other “meta-setter” in the game.

[Scytale]

Who said this is about the meta? It's not. Shifting the meta isn't a bad thing. A dangerous one, certainly, but a good one, desirable even, as it keeps the game fresh. That's not to say we'd excitedly embrace a meta-changer, as experience has taught us prudence, but it's definitely not a turn-off.

[quozl]

It's also important to remember that nobody here speaks for C3V. People are only speaking their opinion.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Who said this is about the meta? It's not. Shifting the meta isn't a bad thing. A dangerous one, certainly, but a good one, desirable even, as it keeps the game fresh. That's not to say we'd excitedly embrace a meta-changer, as experience has taught us prudence, but it's definitely not a turn-off.

Then what is this about?!

[Sheep]

Again, I still don’t see (nor has anyone said) what design space or design would be turned down by Ebol in his own little vacuum, let alone additionally considering Raelin and Rats exist and would probably shut down the design anyways.

We know from the past few pages of actual discussion that Ebol works best with figures/armies who like to react. There are already a ton of figures who do that including Hydra, Himmelskralle, and any toolbox army you can come up with as veggie described.

[EDIT]I should add here about Vegie’s concerns about Ebol overshadowing more direct OM Commanders, and I think I made a solid case as to why that is not the case.[/EDIT]

So again, what are we talking about?

[Dad_Scaper]

HS2010, the problem is that freely swapping OMs around is a non-starter.

If you are attached to the mini and the theme, then do what we do, when we hit a wall with a design: strip out the parts of the design that are causing it to fail, and find another way to make it work. Believe me, we do that very often. And sometimes, we do it with designs we really believe in, but enough of our colleagues oppose something that we just accept that it's not going to get through the process, so we go back to work.

That's where you are now. You know what the issue is, even if you disagree: you can't have a power that freely throws OMs around like that. You don't agree that it's a problem, but by now, you at least know that that's what the problem is. So take him back to your workshop, figure out how to replace that power with something thematic and more likely to pass review, and bring it back.

At this point, you don't have to understand why. You just have to be able to see what the problem *is*, and that progress to where you want to go with this design in its current form is not happening.

Again, this kind of thing happens all the time inside the C3V. You can do it too, just like we do.