The Book of The Top

[Scapemage]

Originally Posted by japes

I'm just asking if that truly is where he belongs. If he really is that strong then ok...I just don't see him in the Girder range.

Not only that every list I can find of Flashes Rogues ranked by power has him way down the list...and even points out how many times he's been killed. Including by Captain Cold.

He did in fact die twice. He also resurrected himself from the dead by possessing the body of a recently deceased Senator, he subdued the Flash on five separate accounts that I could find, and defeated Zatanna on two separate accounts, one of which involved breaking out of one of her ice spells without too much trouble and sending cars and dumpsters flying into the air from his vortex spinning.


I did find a few Rogue power rankings, but the ones I found were either popularity votes or based on the TV show.

Originally Posted by johnny139

I get what japes is saying here - currently this guy is reading to me as "the biggest, baddest Rogue" and I've never really heard of him before. Guys like Captain Cold and Heatwave always seemed like bigger fish.

Captain Cold and Heat Wave are larger names that appear more frequently in the comics and also take on more leadership-esque roles in their normal appearances, but that doesn't mean they're more powerful. Other than Captain Boomerang II (at 135 points), who has minor speed abilities, Girder and The Top are the only two Rogues [we've designed] who are Metahumans and have real and significant abilities.

[Tornado]

Yea

[johnny139]

Cool - I don't have any Flash context but as long as he's supposed to be a step above the rest I'm fine with that.

Yea

[japes]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing us do a 2.0 of several of the Rogues like Arkham has been doing for the Gotham criminals, bringing them up some in power level. So a higher point Top doesn't bother me. I want to do that Capt. Cold II, and I'd be okay if we did a Heatwave II that hit a little harder that the current design does. If they both come in the 160-190 point range, then a 170-185 point Top doesn't sound that crazy.

Arkham is making 2.0's that take different directions not just suping them up. What you are proposing is the definition of Power Creep...supping up figures just to be more powerful. Captain Cold will be more powerful because of his Leadership, not because he's inherently more powerful. And yes Heatwave is probably a little low right now. But in general, the Rogues are suppose to be lowish level. It's why they had to team up. Individually they've never truly been a major thread to Flash...Top included. They catch him off guard or come up with some scheme from time to time but in the end they are nothing special. That's the charm of this faction to me is that you can have a lot of different figures. Other than leadership powers that need to account for those benefits, none of them should be approaching 200. If we wan't to give them some gadget of the week type thing then sure maybe we can create some 2.0's that reach 135-150 range but mostly I think they are fine as is...they just need some leadership...which is thematic.

Now back to TOP specifically...sorry for the rant...

Originally Posted by Scapemage

He did in fact die twice. He also resurrected himself from the dead by possessing the body of a recently deceased Senator, he subdued the Flash on five separate accounts that I could find, and defeated Zatanna on two separate accounts, one of which involved breaking out of one of her ice spells without too much trouble and sending cars and dumpsters flying into the air from his vortex spinning.


I did find a few Rogue power rankings, but the ones I found were either popularity votes or based on the TV show.

Captain Cold and Heat Wave are larger names that appear more frequently in the comics and also take on more leadership-esque roles in their normal appearances, but that doesn't mean they're more powerful. Other than Captain Boomerang II (at 135 points), who has minor speed abilities, Girder and The Top are the only two Rogues [we've designed] who are Metahumans and have real and significant abilities.

Weather Wizard may not be a Metahuman but his weather wand is a pretty significant ability but that's besides the point...

Captain Cold and Heatwave can be more powerful that we have them but not because of their stats...because of their leadership...Their ability alone shouldn't be higher than 125ish but with the right leadership ability then yeah they could approach 200 so I'm not comparing that.

Also Yes I agree The Top is significant...for a Rogue. But I think he should fall between the rest and Girder...not match or exceed him. My entire concern is based on these comments...

Originally Posted by Scapemage

...Even without any other benefactors of Making The World Spin in Game 1, The Top dished out good damage. He belongs in the upper 100s and I wouldn’t be surprised to see an eek closer to 200 or even a bit above....I’m confident starting him at 185 into playtesting, and would like to see what happens in some games against armies with numerous low cost heroes.

I'm only saying that if he does end up exceeding Girder I'd like everyone to consider at least dropping his Defense of 6 to 5 to get him to a thematic place. Or decreasing his move from 8 to 7...I'm not asking to neuter him down to 120...175-185 is still the most significant Rogue not named Girder and I love the light touch MTWS. I think any future Rogues or 2.0's should have similar small things. I'd love to increase this group in number of options so that small factional synergistics still have a large army building sandbox...there are plenty of rouges left to design.

YEA for now but I hope someone actually hears what I'm saying.

[Ronin]

I hear you, japes - I'm just not that familiar with the character, so I don't know where he should rate. I do agree that if he's coming in a little high, the Defense is the first dial to turn.

And I also agree that I don't really want Cold and Heat Wave to be 190 points each, but that's a conversation for another thread.

[Scapemage]

I have no problem bumping down the defense and movement to make him a little more comfortable for the masses here. I'll drop Defense to 5 and Move to 7. If anyone would like to change their vote because of this that is alright. My perception of The Top's power level could be a highball, so if all it takes to get comfortable with you guys is to drop the defense and move my one, that's a pretty easy and reasonable solution in my eyes.


EDIT: That said, since I was feeling him high in my tests anyways, I'm still happy putting him into testing at 185 with these lower stats and seeing if he comes down from there.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Scapemage

I have no problem bumping down the defense and movement to make him a little more comfortable for the masses here. I'll drop Defense to 5 and Move to 7. If anyone would like to change their vote because of this that is alright. My perception of The Top's power level could be a highball, so if all it takes to get comfortable with you guys is to drop the defense and move my one, that's a pretty easy and reasonable solution in my eyes.


EDIT: That said, since I was feeling him high in my tests anyways, I'm still happy putting him into testing at 185 with these lower stats and seeing if he comes down from there.

I'm not petitioning for both I'm just offering suggestions to bring him down IF NEEDED. Since I like the power set I don't want to mess with that much. If anything just do the Defense drop and send him out if you think he will come in higher.

Thanks Scapey

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Ronin

I hear you, japes - I'm just not that familiar with the character, so I don't know where he should rate. I do agree that if he's coming in a little high, the Defense is the first dial to turn.

And I also agree that I don't really want Cold and Heat Wave to be 190 points each, but that's a conversation for another thread.

Yeah, honestly, my issue with the Rogues has always been that they've been incredibly disunited and disorganised as a faction of, essentially, filler heroes... none of them is really worth an Order Marker on their own and can be easily killed to take away your turns, and Captain Cold's Cold Gun SA might be one of the worst leadership powers in the entire game. My issue is not the fact that they're a faction of filler heroes in itself. What they need is some decent leadership - once they have that, playing a load of weak heroes who can threaten more important ones by working in tandem sounds fun!

[Scapemage]

Originally Posted by japes

I'm not petitioning for both I'm just offering suggestions to bring him down IF NEEDED. Since I like the power set I don't want to mess with that much. If anything just do the Defense drop and send him out if you think he will come in higher.

I'd much rather drop his stats slightly than change the power set which I think is really cool and brings a lot to the table. If we're aiming for 165-185 range than both together feel good since I was feeling him 185-200 from testing.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yea

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

and Captain Cold's Cold Gun SA might be one of the worst leadership powers in the entire game.

I mean, you try coming up with the leadership mechanics of Professor X, Mister Fantastic, Martian Manhunter, the Brotherhood of Mutants, and Captain America, and then coming up with something unique and still effective for Captain Cold. We do what we can here, folks.

I still think his mechanic is pretty "cool," (pardon the pun), he could probably just use an extra die in his attack power for the special attack or something.

[Ronin]

I really like Cold Gun. Though all by itself, it isn't quite enough to bring a whole faction together, no.