HCode (a format for saving armies) -- your input needed!

IshMEL · #1 July 11th, 2013, 05:24 PM

One of the things I've been working on is a way to easily create an database of the armies you've created. There are apps for it, I know, but I wanted to try and integrate an army database into the Hextreme Heroscape Spreadsheet. I've been working on a format called the "HCode", and wanted to get some feedback from you all.

The "HCode" lets you "save" an army set up in a short text format. The Army Builder worksheet in the Hextreme Spreadsheet will generate the code for any given army. The format is both machine and human readable. At a glance you can see the name of the army, how many points / hexes it has, and (with some practice) which units are in it, along with some extra data. You can save the code a text file, post it on Heroscapers, etc. If you save it in the Saved Armies tab, the spreadsheet will extract the unit names and the army data. You can store, sort, and filter your armies -- so if you're looking for that 500-point army with range, C3V units and an "evil" theme you made, you can find it. You can also take notes and record wins / losses. There's also an Army Printout where you can put four HCodes on one page in a format suitable for printout.

Here are some examples:

SCP:Zamboni:NLF.RK1.GSW04.::G/Fly/Rng/mtr11:::s4h2::::15-505
Is Jexik's "Zamboni" army (Nilfheim, Raelin ROTV, 4 Greenscales). The first part "SCP" tells you this is made of official 'Scape units. After the army name is the abbreviated list of units. Each unit has a unique code, like an airport code, that tells you what the unit is. G means it's all "good guys" (Jandar and Ullar, in this case), /Fly and /Rng means that it has range and flying, and you can see at the end that it's 505 points and 15 starting hexes.

VC:Ninja Assault:vKDA.NNW.ISA.OTO.KMK.MRK.SHI.::M/Rng/mtr11:::s1h6::::9-500
Is an all-ninja army. The "VC" tells you that there are Valhalla Customs in the army, and Kantono Daishi's code (vKDA) has a lower-case "v" to indicate his VC-ness. You should be able to figure out what the other units are.

You can try it out by downloading the beta version of the Hextreme spreadsheet here. Skip over the yellow "collection" sheets and you can try out the Army Builder and Saved Armies tabs to see how it works.

Apart from accolades, I'm looking for feedback on a few things here:

What would make this more useful?

Is the meta-data that's captured useful for both at-a-glance analysis and sorting purposes? Points and hexes are obvious. Right now the HCode also includes information on system (VC, C3G, D&D, CUC, etc), "alignment" (Good / Evil / Neutral / Mixed, yes I'm a sucker for "theme"), which General an army follows (if it's only one), the aforementioned Flying and Range, the highest threat range (move + highest range including SA), and the number of Heroes and Squads.

Presence of Special Attack could also be an option. I don't want to overload the format, but are there other ideas?

(Oh, and Delta guys, the Delta pricing is supported -- so you can see that:
HSC:Orcish Onslaught:MIM.AGS02.BGT02.SWG02.GRM.NRK.::Eutg/Fly/Rng/mtr14:::s4h5::::24-[545]
Is an Orc army worth 545 points in Delta, since the final number is in brackets. You're welcome.)

That's all for now. Let me know what you think.

IshMEL · #2 July 23rd, 2013, 11:04 AM

Bump!

Any thoughts on this at all?

SuperflyTNT · #3 July 23rd, 2013, 06:22 PM

Just read this for the first time. Thoughts:

First, get rid of "good guys" because it's irrelevant...an army is an army.

Second, use CLS (Classic) and CUS (custom) because it makes more sense to assign a wider net to customs in case you ever support custom units, "user definables", down the road.

Third, while it's useful as a STORAGE medium, it's not truly useful for "at a glance" because people would need to memorize a whole lot of stuff.

Short version: Without a parser on hand, reading this code would require a lot of memorization, and writing the code would be just as painful in that regard.

IshMEL · #4 July 24th, 2013, 12:13 PM

Thanks for the feedback, Superfly.

This is mostly meant as a storage medium, since you can capture the data on an army in one line suitable for keeping in a spreadsheet. It's really only useful with the spreadsheet, both to generate the code and to parse it. Mostly the "at a glance" stuff is there because while it would be possible to, say, assign a number to each unit, it's "friendlier" to use this way.

I do have a wide net for custom options -- right now there's an "other" category for roll-your-own customs and anything else. I think the only major initiative I still need to include is HOSS.

Thanks for taking a look!

Xorlof · #5 July 24th, 2013, 01:28 PM

I like the idea of a human and machine-readable shortcode for armies, but I'm not sure why I do because I don't know where I would use such a system exactly.

If I were designing such a thing, I think I would have a reduced feature set and a greater emphasis on the human readability. Perhaps something like this for your first example:

Zamboni, 14-15-505,, NLF, RK1, GSW x4

So that's Army name, Figures-Spaces-Points, [optional descriptors], UNIT1, UNIT2, UNIT3, etc

In this form, the fields are comma-separated 1) to be more human readable, and 2) to make for easy spreadsheet/database import into different columns. (If one didn't want a big database of armies imported into separate columns you just have to enclose each line in quotes.) The optional descriptors would contain whatever features the army creator think are important to highlight, along the lines of the other fields I chopped from your spec, but lumped together and hyphen-delimited for easier readability (G-Fly-Rng-mtr11-squ4-her2). Any of those things (along with the points, figures, and spaces, I realize) could be calculated and presented to a person automatically when using a program anyway. The thought is that therefore this column would only be there for humans and only the important ones should be highlighted.

It might be helpful to even add one additional character to unit names for greater readability:

Zamboni, 14-15-505,, NILF, RAE1, GRSW x4

or perhaps just allow them to be mixed case and as long as needed:

Zamboni, 14-15-505,, Nilf, Rae1, Grnscl x4

Your other example would look like this (jumping back to 3 characters per card):

Ninja Assault, 9-9-500,, v.KDA, NNW, ISA, OTO, KMK, MRK, SHI

I just let the lowercase "v." prefix speak for itself without any equivalent to your first field. You can get armies with VC, C3G, and HoSS all mixed together anyway (but I'm sure you've thought of that).

Armies intended to be used with alternate pricing? Using your Delta example:

Orcish Onslaught, 19-24-d1.545,, MIM, AGS x2, BGT x2, SWG x2, GRM, NRK

d1 in the case meaning Delta v1

...but feel free to ignore all of this. You're doing great work here and with the Hextreme spreadsheet in general! I'm glad you're keeping it going since it is a tool I use all the time.

IshMEL · #6 July 25th, 2013, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xorlof

I like the idea of a human and machine-readable shortcode for armies, but I'm not sure why I do because I don't know where I would use such a system exactly.

If I were designing such a thing, I think I would have a reduced feature set and a greater emphasis on the human readability. Perhaps something like this for your first example:

Zamboni, 14-15-505,, NLF, RK1, GSW x4

So that's Army name, Figures-Spaces-Points, [optional descriptors], UNIT1, UNIT2, UNIT3, etc

In this form, the fields are comma-separated 1) to be more human readable, and 2) to make for easy spreadsheet/database import into different columns. (If one didn't want a big database of armies imported into separate columns you just have to enclose each line in quotes.) The optional descriptors would contain whatever features the army creator think are important to highlight, along the lines of the other fields I chopped from your spec, but lumped together and hyphen-delimited for easier readability (G-Fly-Rng-mtr11-squ4-her2). Any of those things (along with the points, figures, and spaces, I realize) could be calculated and presented to a person automatically when using a program anyway. The thought is that therefore this column would only be there for humans and only the important ones should be highlighted.

It might be helpful to even add one additional character to unit names for greater readability:

Zamboni, 14-15-505,, NILF, RAE1, GRSW x4

or perhaps just allow them to be mixed case and as long as needed:

Zamboni, 14-15-505,, Nilf, Rae1, Grnscl x4

Your other example would look like this (jumping back to 3 characters per card):

Ninja Assault, 9-9-500,, v.KDA, NNW, ISA, OTO, KMK, MRK, SHI

I just let the lowercase "v." prefix speak for itself without any equivalent to your first field. You can get armies with VC, C3G, and HoSS all mixed together anyway (but I'm sure you've thought of that).

Armies intended to be used with alternate pricing? Using your Delta example:

Orcish Onslaught, 19-24-d1.545,, MIM, AGS x2, BGT x2, SWG x2, GRM, NRK

d1 in the case meaning Delta v1

...but feel free to ignore all of this. You're doing great work here and with the Hextreme spreadsheet in general! I'm glad you're keeping it going since it is a tool I use all the time.

Thanks for all this input! I think (like I do with customs sometimes) that I've overcomplicated the idea. I've also realized that some of the "feature set" stuff (theme, flying, etc etc) can be extracted from the army makeup, rather than being included in the auto-generated code. So the HCode could be minimal, just including name, figs, hexes, points, and the unit list. Then when you put it in the spreadsheet on the "Saved Armies" tab it would generate those details, enabling you to "filter" the list based on whatever it is you're looking for. It's actually a bit easier.

Of course, this will mean re-coding .... but what else is new?

I also like your suggestion of mixing cases and allowing for longer names. Maybe a max of 5 characters, plus the prefix for customs.

Back to the spreadsheet...

IshMEL · #7 July 30th, 2013, 11:44 AM

OK so I've taken the "simplify!" advice to heart, and here's now the new code looks:

Zamboni: Nilf, Bacon, GrnWr x 04: 6u-15h-505
Ninja Assault: vKantD, Isamu, Otnsh, Morik, NotNW, Kumko, Shior: 7u-9h-500

So the Name of the Army, followed by the list of units, then the number of units, starting hexes, and points. All the other stuff is extracted in the spreadsheet, so you can sort on it but it doesn't clutter up the code.

I changed the UUC codes as suggested, they are now mixed case for ease of reading and can now be 2-5 characters. The prefix system is the same. If you're curious, here's the list of UUCs. Feel free to suggest any changes.

Spoiler Alert!

The Delta / Delta+ scoring is still in brackets as before.

Thanks everyone for your input. I think this is much better now!

Xorlof · #8 August 1st, 2013, 09:14 AM

I agree. This looks much more friendly!

I didn't proof the UUCs, but did skim them. I was curious as to why you have separate prefixes for DC/Marvel/Independent? When evaluating whether I can play "Army X," I don't normally need to know which publisher the units are from, right? I just know that the event is C3G-legal, and that those are C3G units? I've played very little C3G (but plan to play more because what they do is fantastic and it seems a shame to not avail myself to their work), so there could be something here that I'm missing.

I am still slightly concerned with Delta pricing just being bracketed, and not including a version number. Delta is an evolving pricing system. A Delta price of 100 today may be 95 or 110 tomorrow.

But as I said before--great work!

IshMEL · #9 August 1st, 2013, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xorlof

I agree. This looks much more friendly!

Thanks!

Quote:

I didn't proof the UUCs, but did skim them. I was curious as to why you have separate prefixes for DC/Marvel/Independent? When evaluating whether I can play "Army X," I don't normally need to know which publisher the units are from, right? I just know that the event is C3G-legal, and that those are C3G units? I've played very little C3G (but plan to play more because what they do is fantastic and it seems a shame to not avail myself to their work), so there could be something here that I'm missing.

Mostly to tell similarly-named units apart (there's a DC and a Marvel Captain Marvel, for instance.) This was more of an issue when the UUCs were all 3 characters. I don't play C3G either, perhaps I should head over the their forum and ask them....

Quote:

I am still slightly concerned with Delta pricing just being bracketed, and not including a version number. Delta is an evolving pricing system. A Delta price of 100 today may be 95 or 110 tomorrow.

Good point... as it stands now, you'd have to re-enter all your armies every time the Delta system changed. But do they come out with "versions" or is it incremental change?

I think the easiest way to handle this is to put in a check for Delta units in the saved armies spreadsheet. Once the user has put in the new Delta costing on the main sheet, it would extract the Delta cost and compare it to the HCode total. The user could then just edit the code directly with the new total. A bit kludgey but it might work. Of course, who knows, maybe there are only 2 people who use Delta and this spreadsheet...

Thanks again for your input and encouragement. I'm nearly ready to put out a non-beta version.

Xorlof · #10 August 1st, 2013, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IshMEL

Mostly to tell similarly-named units apart (there's a DC and a Marvel Captain Marvel, for instance.) This was more of an issue when the UUCs were all 3 characters. I don't play C3G either, perhaps I should head over the their forum and ask them....

OK--I thought maybe it was a remnant when you were trying to include different factions in the first draft (like the all "good/evil guys" notation).

Quote:

Originally Posted by IshMEL

Good point... as it stands now, you'd have to re-enter all your armies every time the Delta system changed. But do they come out with "versions" or is it incremental change?

The original cornpuff pricing (which Delta started from) was going to come out with a new version seasonally (twice a year?). I *believe* that Delta also plans to have "releases" where the pricing changes all at once (as opposed to tinkering with a figure here and there). The_X_Marker or Typhon2222 would know for sure.

My thought with regards to HCode is that the army was likely composed to meet particular requirements. If you're supporting Delta, it was likely composed to meet a particular version of Delta. It may still be playable under future versions (at the revised point total), but I would think the original HCode should document the army author's intent for the army.

That's part of the reason to include figures, spaces and points in the first place. To document what constraints the army fits in. Along those lines did you consider whether to have a place for a human readable comment that the army creator could add at the end? Perhaps another colon and then a (for example) 30-character free-text?

Army Name: Unit1, Unit2, Unit3, etc: 5u-10h-800p: For a Monster Mash event

Alternately I suppose the comment could go in the army name:

Army Name [for a Monster Mash event]: Unit1, Unit2, Unit3, etc.: 5u-10h-800p

There are plusses and minuses to officially supporting comments, I realize, but it gives flexibility to document some intent that plain army composition couldn't.

Another thing to consider--and one that might go some distance towards assisting in the adoption of HCode is to have an official attribution field. Not just something where you can put your name in the comments, but a dedicated field to help encourage people to put their name along with the army they came up with. The idea here is that somewhere, somebody *should* be collecting these HCode armies and making a big 'ole database that people can browse (not necessarily presenting then in HCode format though). Having the names would encourage people to format their own stuff as HCode to make it easy to add to the database.

Last idea (and one I'm very unsure about)--prefixing the hcode with a unique short string to make it easy to search for/find hcodes, as well as perhaps have a version number for the format:

hcd1: Army Name: Unit1, Unit2, Unit3, etc: 5u-10h-800p

I doubt you'll want to use all of these ideas (since it's raising the complexity again), but my fingers felt like typing them.

IshMEL · #11 August 2nd, 2013, 12:31 PM

Thanks again for the input -- I'm getting closer all the time to a standard here. Adding an optional comment field wouldn't be difficult, something along the lines of:

Classic X Men: mProfX, mBeast, mAngel, mCyclp, mJeanG, mIce: 6u-6h-1000: Superhero Draft Card

I think it's probably simplest to just put comments at the end, and the code will just ignore everything after the points cost.

And I really like the idea of attaching the creator name, somehow. Perhaps:

Zamboni [Jexik]: Nilf, Bacon, GrnWr x 04: 6u-15h-505

Easy to extract, easy to add in.

I've asked the Delta folks about version numbering, so waiting on a reply there before I proceed with changing that.

Onward and upward!

IshMEL · #12 August 22nd, 2013, 11:06 PM

FYI the new spreadsheet is uploaded (see link in my sig) with the HCode system and a bunch of other stuff.

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