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  #85  
Old June 26th, 2020, 07:50 PM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
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DEFENSIVE VAULT
After a Varkaanan Blade Dancer rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent opponent's figure, if she is still adjacent to the attacking figure, you may place that Varkaanan Blade Dancer on any other space adjacent to the attacking figure, if possible. A Varkaanan Blade Dancer does not take any leaving engagement attacks when using Defensive Vault.
The wording suggests the Blade Dancer is leaving the engagement with the attacking figure.
No, it doesn't (mean to) suggest that. It simply means that she doesn't take leaving engagement attacks. A VBD could easily be engaged with two enemy figures when Defensive Vault triggers, and end the movement engaged with just one of them. In that case, she would not take a LEA from the figure she is no longer engaged with.

Moving from one space adjacent to a figure to another cannot trigger an engagement strike from that figure, whether that figure is a Cathar Spearman or a Nakita Agent. Defensive Vault is no different than walking around a figure in this regard.

The exception here is flying, and similarly worded abilities like Stealth Leap and Grapple Arm. These powers explicitly break engagement when the movement begins, so using them to move from one side of Arkmer to the other would trigger a fresh engagement strike.
It may not have meant to, but it still suggests that the Dancer is vaulting over the figure (kinda like flying over it and leaving engagement) not moving around it.
No, it's the name of the power that suggests that, but our intuition about what powers mean doesn't bear on how the powers work in the game. After all, why would a Deathreavers scatter away when Kaemon Awa shoots their buddy with a bow, but stand there and if he decides to release the arrows a little more quickly and shoot their buddy twice?

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So @quozl and @superfrog were incorrect a couple pages back?
I'm afraid they were.

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I'm also assuming then that this new ruling would also extend to all "placement" powers (for example, if Emiroon summoned an elf that was next to a Nikita, and ended up placing the elf in a different space adjacent to the same Nikita, her engagement strike would not activate?)
Correct. Obviously these questions have existed since 2006 - they're not created by customs.

If a Nakita Agent wouldn't get an engagement strike on a knight walking around it with Jandar's Dispatch, then it doesn't get an engagement strike from Emiroon popping Chardris from one side of the Nakita to the other.

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In my opinion, @quozl 's ruling makes more sense to me in terms of how I've always understood the logic of "placing" to work. The logic being that I've always understood "placed" units to occupy an indeterminate "inbetween space" between being placed, similar to how flying works when you really get into the nitty-gritty of it.
While there is a difference between space-to-space movement that is counted and powers that put a figure on a space, there's no "in-between" space as you describe. This is the same reason that, for example, you don't roll leaving engagement on something hopping over a battlement, even if it would seem to temporarily leave engagement with a shorter figure at the peak of the climb before "re-engaging" on the other side. This is very much the same question as defensive vault, et al.

There was even an old question about Drake taking leaving engagement as he grapple gunned "past" a figure that was above him and is now below him. He doesn't, because even though it feels like he was on that level during movement, he wasn't. He just moved from one space to the other.

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Which also explains why by default falling damage doesn't apply to placed figures.
Yeah, that's the distinction between movement that's counted space by space, and movement that simply chooses a space and "places" the figure there. (I put "place" in quotes because of Saylind - that card actually says "move", so the rules don't consistently distinguish between them move and place as terms.) Falling damage only applies to space-by-space movement, but there's no such distinction when it comes to engagement rules.

Last edited by dok; June 26th, 2020 at 10:21 PM.
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  #86  
Old June 26th, 2020, 09:35 PM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

@dok thanks so much for the detailed reply! When you said that falling damage only applies to space-by-space movement, is there anywhere in the rules that indicates this? Or is that an inference based on some other ruling or interaction? I'd always assumed that the reason behind why falling damage doesn't apply is because the "movement" from one space to another wasn't direct from one space to another (the in-between space), but I guess that understanding was incorrect. I realize that the answer behind why falling damage only applies to space-by-space movement might be "that's just the way we've all decided to play it," although I must admit that without anything in the rules specifically listing this as an exception, that's less satisfying.

Last edited by Captain Stupendous; June 26th, 2020 at 09:55 PM.
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  #87  
Old June 26th, 2020, 10:20 PM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

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@dok thanks so much for the detailed reply! When you said that falling damage only applies to space-by-space movement, is there anywhere in the rules that indicates this? Or is that an inference based on some other ruling or interaction?
It's based on location and wording where falling damage is introduced:
Quote:
Originally Posted by the rulebook
When you move to a lower level, you don't need to count sides on the way down (but there could be a penalty for moving to a much lower level; see Falling).
This is in the section on counting movement, immediately following the rules about counting height when climbing. This implies (or at least has been used as the basis of the interpretation) that falling damage arises from space-by-space movement.
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  #88  
Old June 27th, 2020, 11:06 AM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

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@dok thanks so much for the detailed reply! When you said that falling damage only applies to space-by-space movement, is there anywhere in the rules that indicates this? Or is that an inference based on some other ruling or interaction?
It's based on location and wording where falling damage is introduced:
Quote:
Originally Posted by the rulebook
When you move to a lower level, you don't need to count sides on the way down (but there could be a penalty for moving to a much lower level; see Falling).
This is in the section on counting movement, immediately following the rules about counting height when climbing. This implies (or at least has been used as the basis of the interpretation) that falling damage arises from space-by-space movement.
This interpretation makes a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain it and clearing up some questions I've been pondering for a while!
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  #89  
Old June 27th, 2020, 11:45 AM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

Can you point me to the wording that makes you think blade dancing is different than stealth leaping?

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  #90  
Old June 27th, 2020, 01:05 PM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

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Can you point me to the wording that makes you think blade dancing is different than stealth leaping?
I'm obviously not a rules expert, but I'll give it my best shot.

I'm guessing it's because Defensive Vault is a placement power, whereas Stealth Leap is a form of space-to-space movement similar to Flying? Because placement is an instantaneous form of direct movement between two spaces (rather than constituting movement to an indeterminate in-between "space" as I had previously thought) no engagement check is made. In terms of game mechanics, a Blade Dancer isn't using Defensive Vault to move over any space; Defensive Vault places the Blade Dancer directly on the destination space, so the terms for disengagement (attempting to enter a space non-adjacent to an engaged enemy) are never actually met.

I'm not quite as confident on the reasoning for why Stealth Leap would trigger Engagement Strike, but I'll try. I think the reason is that Stealth Leap essentially gives a figure a more limited form of Stealth Flying for the turn in terms of mechanics. Just like flying, a figure using Stealth Leap "may leap over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and leap over obstacles such as ruins." I think this implies that when a figure starts to Stealth Leap, it leaves engagement with all figures, only entering engagement again once the Stealth Leap movement has been completed. Therefore, a figure who is adjacent to a Nakita and used Stealth Leap even just to move "around" the Nakita would still roll for engagement strike upon landing, just like a character using flying.

Hopefully that all makes sense, and if I'm wrong I'm sure that others more skilled in the Deeper Knowledge of Heroscape will correct me
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  #91  
Old June 30th, 2020, 10:17 PM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

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Can you point me to the wording that makes you think blade dancing is different than stealth leaping?
@dok ?

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  #92  
Old June 30th, 2020, 10:24 PM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

If the intent is that the Blade Dancer doesn't leave engagement with the attacking figure, even if the wording, especially the bit about not taking leaving engagement suggests that it does, then a simple clarification added to the OP would settle this debate.


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  #93  
Old June 30th, 2020, 10:27 PM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

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No, it's the name of the power that suggests that, but our intuition about what powers mean doesn't bear on how the powers work in the game.
No, it's the mention about not taking leaving engagement attacks that suggests the Blade Dancer is leaving engagement with the attacking figure.


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  #94  
Old July 1st, 2020, 12:27 AM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

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Can you point me to the wording that makes you think blade dancing is different than stealth leaping?
@dok ?
The easiest way to explain it is that Steath Leap uses the flying wording that has a known ruling attached to it, while Blade Dancing is just "do what card says".

Blade Dance is a placement power that says you place the figure on a spot. That's what it says to do so that's all you do. So if you move from one spot adjacent to the figure to another spot adjacent to that figure, you never left engagement, because you moved from one space next to the figure to another space next to the figure. (The "does not take leaving engagement" wording is there for possible disengagement from another enemy figure, not the one you're leaping around.)

By contrast, stealth leap uses nearly the exact wording as flying. Flying uses wording that strongly implies space-by-space movement, and we have established rulings that flying triggers leaving engagement when you start flying, even if you plan to fly around a figure without moving away from it.

I guess at this point I'll tag @Scytale to see if he disagrees with me or has anything to add.
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  #95  
Old July 1st, 2020, 12:47 AM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

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Can you point me to the wording that makes you think blade dancing is different than stealth leaping?
@dok ?
The easiest way to explain it is that Steath Leap uses the flying wording that has a known ruling attached to it, while Blade Dancing is just "do what card says".

Blade Dance is a placement power that says you place the figure on a spot. That's what it says to do so that's all you do. So if you move from one spot adjacent to the figure to another spot adjacent to that figure, you never left engagement, because you moved from one space next to the figure to another space next to the figure. (The "does not take leaving engagement" wording is there for possible disengagement from another enemy figure, not the one you're leaping around.)

By contrast, stealth leap uses nearly the exact wording as flying. Flying uses wording that strongly implies space-by-space movement, and we have established rulings that flying triggers leaving engagement when you start flying, even if you plan to fly around a figure without moving away from it.

I guess at this point I'll tag @Scytale to see if he disagrees with me or has anything to add.
I agree, and have a counter question. What wording makes you think this is the same as Stealth Leap, and different than, say, Swamp Water Tunnel?
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  #96  
Old July 1st, 2020, 02:49 AM
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Re: The Book of Varkaanan Blade Dancers

Swamp Water Tunnel would also make most folks think it would trigger Engagement Strike if the Drudge tunnels around a Nakita.

Its best to just put in an FAQ and be done with it.

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