The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Aldin

Close. I'm saying that any Christian who is tempted to act in a sexual manner outside of marriage should refrain from doing so.

Oh, now you're just splitting hairs with me. Because a same-sex couple can never have a Christian marriage (unless I'm misunderstanding you on that point), a homosexual person could never act upon his or her sexual desires. Unless, as you go on to say, he or she chooses not to have a "better life."

[CrazyTankster]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Oh, now you're just splitting hairs with me. Because a same-sex couple can never have a Christian marriage (unless I'm misunderstanding you on that point), a homosexual person could never act upon his or her sexual desires. Unless, as you go on to say, he or she chooses not to have a "better life."

I was talking to one of my church leaders about this on Sunday, and he said that they have had several individuals in the congregation (past and present) that struggle with reconciling their same sex attraction and their faith that says sexual acts of homosexuality are sinful.

(Interestingly, from what I've read in the Bible only the acts of homosexual sex is what is sinful, not the being attracted to another of the same sex, I think a lot of people miss that distinction. I have a friend who is gay and a Christian, and he and his boyfriend have committed to an intimate monogamous relationship where they will remain celibate in regards to their sexuality. As far as I know the Bible has no issue with their relationship. I'm not at all saying it's for everyone, but I'm interested to see how it devolops over time. Anyway.)

My church leader said in each instance the church leadership has encouraged the individual to remain celibate and seek God, asking Him to fulfill their desire for companionship and to ease their desire for sex. In each case (so far) that has happened, and the individuals have reported that God has met them and their needs in ways that a heterosexual individual can not even fathom, as the desire they have for their spouse, while good and Biblical, does prevent a closeness to God that these other individuals have. In some ways I'm a little jealous, as I will never be able to be that close to God (because of my desires for my wife) till the New Earth comes into being.

I think it was Aldin that mentioned celibacy as an option, and I think Christians dismiss that too readily. I think that's because being with someone, in both Christian and secular cultures, has become the way many people think they have worth and indentify themselves. On the flip side, if a gay individual isn't a Christian, then telling him/her to just wait on God is absurd.

Sorry that I switch sometimes from my Christianity to speaking as a person not revealing their opinion on it, it was hard to maintain one stance of speaking throughout my little novel here.

Also, these are just my (current) opinions, and while I think I'm right (otherwise I would have different opinions) I want to be open to the fact that I could be wrong and not get locked into my thoughts without considering new evidence as it arises.

CT- humbly, seeking to learn and share my thoughts if I end up being right.

[Dysole]

Not gonna lie. After my comment earlier, JS and I had a very interesting conversation. He asked some good questions and it sounds like I did as well. As a Christian, I think that's important for us to be doing within our own congregations. I think we would be served far better by doing that than attempting something political.

~Dysole, who will simply leave with an interesting observation from an article from a Christian man who said he couldn't use the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" any more since that was pretty much only applied to homosexuals and allowed us to see their only identity as "sinner" and it allowed us to view them as different. Thought it was fascinating and I can probably dredge it up if anyone else wants to read it.

[Tornado]

Calling anyone a sinner is pointless and sounds hypocritical to me. Is anyone not a sinner?
So if we are all sinners why should anyone be treated differently than anyone else?

[Dad_Scaper]

Very interesting, CT!

Celibacy is, of course, an option. And if two people in your church's flock seek guidance from their religious leader, and that's how he counsels them, and they adopt his suggestion, I hope they find peace and comfort on that path.

Of course, it's a whole different ballgame if your church leader were to tell everyone else, across his county and state, that *all* homosexuals should be celibate. That, of course, is not his business, and even if it were, that suggestion is both incredibly hurtful (in that it presumes a wrongness that the intended audience likely does not accept) and incredibly hurtful (in that it asks an extraordinary sacrifice). Would you tell strangers to you that they should not know a lover's touch ever, in their entire lives, because of an accident of birth? No. It's one thing to give that advice to someone who seeks it; it's quite another to have *any* expectation that others care what your opinion is, or would act upon it if they did.

But if your fellow churchgoers sought his advice, and received it respectfully, and considered whether to follow it, that's their business, and not mine.

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Oh, now you're just splitting hairs with me. Because a same-sex couple can never have a Christian marriage (unless I'm misunderstanding you on that point), a homosexual person could never act upon his or her sexual desires. Unless, as you go on to say, he or she chooses not to have a "better life."

Actually, I was expanding the point very intentionally.

I have two very good friends who are going to serve as my examples here. One has consensually slept with more adults than they can recall. My advice to that person, were they to ask it, would be not to have any more sexual partners. That they would have a better life if they chose not to live that way. Society finds that person's actions completely acceptable.

My other friend is attracted to underage individuals (to be clear, this person has not acted on that attraction to my knowledge). My advice to that person, were they to ask it, would be not to act on that attraction. That they will live a better life if they choose not to live that way. Society finds that person's desires completely unacceptable.

Neither of these friends is a Christian and I don't preach at them about how their lives would be better. I don't have some sort of mandate that they change their lives or live by my standards. Were they to become Christians and to ask my advice, I would give it and I would support them in any way I could.

I expanded it because it has nothing to do with being gay. And it has nothing to do with me telling anyone what to do. It's simply a reflection of my belief that acting in ways counter to God's Word are ultimately not the best choice for anyone in any situation.

~Aldin, mending hares

[Dad_Scaper]

Interesting how you compare homosexuality to pedophilia and to promiscuity. Hmm. In your opinion, what's the difference between them? What's so special about homosexuality that it gets the same zero-tolerance treatment? Or is it that all of God's Word must be observed absolutely, and equally?

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Calling anyone a sinner is pointless and sounds hypocritical to me. Is anyone not a sinner?
So if we are all sinners why should anyone be treated differently than anyone else?

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (from memory, not sure which translation)

That's my answer to part 1. Part 2 goes a bit off the rails though.

Why should we treat murderers differently than someone else? Really? Of course we should treat some folks differently from other folks - and for lots of different reasons.

~Aldin, gettin along to get along

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Aldin

Why should we treat murderers differently than someone else? Really? Of course we should treat some folks differently from other folks - and for lots of different reasons.

Yes! Folding this into my post that ninja'ed yours, I wonder about your comparison of homosexuality to sexual promiscuity and to pedophilia. We should not treat them the same, as you say.

How are they different?

[Tornado]

Really? Because my understanding is that regardless if you are a rapist or murderer if you accept Jesus as your savior and confess your sins, you go to Heaven. If you live a relatively sin-lite life but do not accept Jesus you go to Hell.
What is the grading system for sin?

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Interesting how you compare homosexuality to pedophilia and to promiscuity. Hmm. In your opinion, what's the difference between them? What's so special about homosexuality that it gets the same zero-tolerance treatment? Or is it that all of God's Word must be observed absolutely, and equally?

I compared them to pedophilia and promiscuity because I actually have friends who have attractions that way. I could have as easily compared it to adultery, sex before marriage or any number of other ways to express sexuality which don't match up with God's Word. And yes counselor, homosexual sexual relations are on the list of means of sexual expression which don't line up with God's Word. By your statements, you seem to want that to be some special case in my mind, but it simply isn't.

If a homosexual friend engages in a sexual relationship with a partner, I see it as analogous to a heterosexual friend sleeping with multiple partners. I chastise neither.

~Aldin, who does stand on God's Word absolutely while wondering if that means to him what it means to someone else

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Really? Because my understanding is that regardless if you are a rapist or murderer if you accept Jesus as your savior and confess your sins, you go to Heaven. If you live a relatively sin-lite life but do not accept Jesus you go to Hell.
What is the grading system for sin?

Two different topics. One is how sin is ultimately judged by God. The other is how we live in the world under governmental authority. Folks shouldn't judge other folks for sinning - that's God's job. Folks can and should try to have good laws and live by them.

~Aldin, trying for clarity