The Book of Nightwing

[Viegon]

Even setting aside Counter Strike there are a lot of other odd interactions: Stealth Dodge, Vanish, Jujutsu, Green Shield Strike, and so forth. Or even extreme scenarios like if Nightwing, in the middle of an attack, runs into Doctor Doom's Elaborate Pit Trap, ending his turn; would that also end the attack?

Thinking on it more though, I think we could just remove the "immediately" and FAQ that the movement doesn't trigger until the attack has been fully resolved.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Viegon

Thinking on it more though, I think we could just remove the "immediately" and FAQ that the movement doesn't trigger until the attack has been fully resolved.

That works for me. I could definitely see how it'd get messy with something like Elaborate Pit Trap.

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by Viegon

Thinking on it more though, I think we could just remove the "immediately" and FAQ that the movement doesn't trigger until the attack has been fully resolved.

That seems like a sensible interpretation, but instead of patching it with a FAQ, why not recast the text to just say what you want? As far as I know this would only be a change for two figures. It drives me nuts when a game text clearly says "apple" and the FAQ says "but no, really it's orange." The greater that pile gets, the harder it is to actually play units as intended. The game starts to bend under its own weight.

You have 100% control over what these cards say. It's a virtual, downloadable product that doesn't have to worry about inventory or retailers or pissing off secondary-market speculators. Found a wording problem? Just fix it! There's a temporary annoyance for the artist who has to update the card*, and a temporary annoyance for some players who download it, and then everyone reaps the benefit of the improved text for years to come (and new units that get designed later don't have to keep repeating a wording that everyone knows is wrong).

Heck, as long as you're cracking the card open to delete "immediately," there's really no reason not to rework the text so it tells you exactly when the movement happens.

(* And if artist resources are a problem, I can help.)

[TrollBrute]

I'm late to the discussion here, but I completely agree that the wording should be changed to alter the timing. There are just too many weird interactions otherwise. I also agree that if we're changing the wording at all, we might as well make it as clear as possible.

[IAmBatman]

@Just_a_Bill - what wording would you suggest we go with?

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

@Just_a_Bill - what wording would you suggest we go with?

I'm all for fixing the wording thoroughly, I was just thinking that removing the "immediately" would fix the wording (and the FAQ suggestion was for additional clarity for those who miss the subtle difference).

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

@Just_a_Bill - what wording would you suggest we go with?

I'll work up a proposal and try to post it later today. I want to do a little more research to see if the principle applies to any other existing cards.

[IAmBatman]

Sounds good! Thanks.

[Just_a_Bill]

So it looks like this issue is quite a bit bigger than just Nightwing; I found several more powers that need to be considered. This search was extensive but not exhaustive, so there are probably others. But at least this maybe gives us a sense of the scale and the nature of the effects involved.

This research has not been double-checked yet. There may be errors.

Powers that move the attacker after attack dice are rolled but before defense dice are rolled:

• Batman (Dick) — ACROBATIC MOVEMENT
• Batman (Terry) — BAT GLIDE
• Nightwing — ACROBATIC MASTERY
• Silver Surfer — COSMIC SPEED
• Star-Lord — DISTRACTING FIRE SPECIAL ATTACK

Noteworthy powers that move the defender after attack dice are rolled but before defense dice are rolled, or that move the defender "immediately" after defense dice are rolled and thus probably before they are applied (creating some ambiguity about whether defenders can "do their stuff" before being wounded or destroyed):

• Archangel — AVENGING ANGEL
• Angel (Warren) — GUARDIAN ANGEL
• Mister Mxyzptlk — KLTPZYXM
• Ragdoll — CONTORTIONIST

This category also includes 4 of the 5 cards from the first category:

• Batman (Dick) — ACROBATIC MOVEMENT
• Batman (Terry) — BAT GLIDE
• Nightwing — ACROBATIC MASTERY
• Silver Surfer — COSMIC SPEED

(Note that there are a ton of other effects like these I'm ignoring, in which the more common/obvious problems do not occur due to something like a one-shield defense component or whatever. There are probably still other interactions that are problematic, but for now I have to draw the line somewhere so the project doesn't become too large.)

Sample powers that move the defender after defense dice are rolled but don't say "immediately" (these are still ambiguous, but easier to rationalize as perhaps intending to work after wounds, counter strikes, and other consequences are applied):

• Arkham Inmates — AGGRAVATED ASSAULT
• Shocker — VIBROSHOCK KNOCKBACK
• Zero-G — GRAVITY EXPLOSION SPECIAL ATTACK

There may need to be proposals for several powers, and I need some time to think about all of this holistically, rather than toss off a couple of suggestions piecemeal. I also need to make sure my research isn't full of crap ... it's been an unusually chaotic day.

[japes]

There is a lot of unresolved discussion here.

[isherlock99]

An additional source for the same figure is Batman: Alpha #029 / Nightwing.