The Pre-SoV Workshop

[caps]

If you don't like opponent's being able to "disable" the charge by moving closer, you could just follow the wording of First Assault from Valguard and say he can only use it on a figure he wasn't engaged with at the start of the turn.

[Shadowking]

Originally Posted by caps

If you don't like opponent's being able to "disable" the charge by moving closer, you could just follow the wording of First Assault from Valguard and say he can only use it on a figure he wasn't engaged with at the start of the turn.

Mhm, I don't *hate* that idea, but I think it makes more thematic sense to have him use the Templar's wording than Valguard's overall - I think other than the case where they can get a figure exactly 3 spaces away from him it captures pretty much the rest of the elements that make sense in terms of theme and mechanics, whereas with Valguard's he can move up one space and still get the benefit of Hussite Charge. It also increases his power level a lot giving him easier access to the 5-dice Charge special (it's strong, but intended to be limited by ease-of-use to some degree). The "if he moved through X unique/different spaces this turn" is likely the ideal solution if rules can handle it, but I don't know if they can.

[ryguy266]

Is there a reason why Kafnirra is Wild, and why Guardian Totem works on Wild figures? I understand that the synergy is so that she can bond with MacDirks/Dreadguls and have Guardian Totem work, but thematically it doesn't make a ton of sense to me. If she is Wild, some sort of self-sacrificial and noble power feels very out of place. If she's not Wild, it's weird that Guardian Totem would work on other Wild figures.

Also, the actual ability is a fun mechanic but ultimately useless for the MacDirks, right? Let's say I've got a squad of 4th Mass with WTF on height looking at a squad of MacDirks with Kafnirra adjacent to all of them. If Kafnirra isn't there, I'm going to average about 1.4 wounds (4v2s on MacDirks). That means with my 4 shots I'm dealing on average 5-6 wounds, and killing on average 3 of the four MacDirks. Now, with Kafnirra, she could soak up those 5-6 wounds, preserving the squad but killing her and doing more damage worth of points. This evens out a little better for the Dreadguls, who have the same defense as Kafnirra, but there are only three in a squad, so you have to choose more between killing a squad figure or wounding Kafnirra. You get the full benefit of shooting a hero figure (all extra skulls have the potential for wounds) with the full benefit of shooting a weak defense figure. It seems the optimal strategy would be to wound Kafnirra when I roll only one more skull than you roll shields, and to let the squad figure die if I roll three skulls and you blank. However, my odds to kill are so good against the MacDirks that I might wipe all of them anyway, with the potential to at least severely wound Kafnirra and cripple a MacDirk squad in one turn. This is an extreme example with the 4th Mass damage output being pretty unparalleled, but the theme and the mechanics of Guardian Totem just don't make sense to me. One way to make this ability useful is to have it so that one wound placed on Kafnirra ignores all wounds on an adjacent Wild figure, but then balance is a problem and it still doesn't address the theme issue.

Also, I much prefer the power name "Winds of Poland" to "Wiatry Z Polska" for Jan. There's not any(?) precedent for other languages in the power names. While it's nice to pay the "source material" tribute, it looks very out of place of the card, and having it so that 99.9% of Heroscape players don't know what it means really sucks the theme from the ability. Gladiator power names in ancient roman? Samurai power names in Japanese? Soulborg power names in binary? At a certain point, the historical part needs to be dialed back to have a clean a readable card from a gameplay perspective. Besides, this community has enough pronunciation issues as is, myself included. But I quite like the name "Winds of Poland" as it strikes a very patriotic sense of wonder.

[Shadowking]

Originally Posted by ryguy266

Is there a reason why Kafnirra is Wild, and why Guardian Totem works on Wild figures? I understand that the synergy is so that she can bond with MacDirks/Dreadguls and have Guardian Totem work, but thematically it doesn't make a ton of sense to me. If she is Wild, some sort of self-sacrificial and noble power feels very out of place. If she's not Wild, it's weird that Guardian Totem would work on other Wild figures.

Also, the actual ability is a fun mechanic but ultimately useless for the MacDirks, right? Let's say I've got a squad of 4th Mass with WTF on height looking at a squad of MacDirks with Kafnirra adjacent to all of them. If Kafnirra isn't there, I'm going to average about 1.4 wounds (4v2s on MacDirks). That means with my 4 shots I'm dealing on average 5-6 wounds, and killing on average 3 of the four MacDirks. Now, with Kafnirra, she could soak up those 5-6 wounds, preserving the squad but killing her and doing more damage worth of points. This evens out a little better for the Dreadguls, who have the same defense as Kafnirra, but there are only three in a squad, so you have to choose more between killing a squad figure or wounding Kafnirra. You get the full benefit of shooting a hero figure (all extra skulls have the potential for wounds) with the full benefit of shooting a weak defense figure. It seems the optimal strategy would be to wound Kafnirra when I roll only one more skull than you roll shields, and to let the squad figure die if I roll three skulls and you blank. However, my odds to kill are so good against the MacDirks that I might wipe all of them anyway, with the potential to at least severely wound Kafnirra and cripple a MacDirk squad in one turn. This is an extreme example with the 4th Mass damage output being pretty unparalleled, but the theme and the mechanics of Guardian Totem just don't make sense to me. One way to make this ability useful is to have it so that one wound placed on Kafnirra ignores all wounds on an adjacent Wild figure, but then balance is a problem and it still doesn't address the theme issue.

Also, I much prefer the power name "Winds of Poland" to "Wiatry Z Polska" for Jan. There's not any(?) precedent for other languages in the power names. While it's nice to pay the "source material" tribute, it looks very out of place of the card, and having it so that 99.9% of Heroscape players don't know what it means really sucks the theme from the ability. Gladiator power names in ancient roman? Samurai power names in Japanese? Soulborg power names in binary? At a certain point, the historical part needs to be dialed back to have a clean a readable card from a gameplay perspective. Besides, this community has enough pronunciation issues as is, myself included. But I quite like the name "Winds of Poland" as it strikes a very patriotic sense of wonder.

Hmm, so yeah you're not entirely wrong about Kafnirra in some sense, but the way she's been powerful in the games I've been playing as is a positioning tool. If you group her up with MacDirks or Dreadguls, the opponent basically *has* to take her down first (like a sort of forced Raelin), they can take shots into the MacDirks' 2 defense if they want to but then you get the decision to not take wounds on her if they roll large overkill damage, so it can be interesting to pick targets when facing her in some cases. She basically says "these squaddies are gonna sit here around me" and acts as a decent health pool for them while moving up. It is kinda subtle, though, and probably a bit hard to visualize until you play (she also might benefit from it being "within 2 clear sight spaces" so you're not quite so limited in the squad needing to stick specifically and exactly around her space). As for the theme, I figured it worked along the lines of sort of Nordic "barbarian"/rugged hunter-esque types - despite them being wild and primal to some degree, the totem theme I thought worked well for them along the lines of guardian nature totems etc (Nerak is Wild and gives the Orc Defensive Aura, for another Classic 'Scape example). It is possible I think that her health should go back up to 6 (and/or her points should be adjusted), but her ranged attack also adds a different angle of flexibility for them and the hybrid role has been pretty interesting to play from my experiences.

I think you are correct for Jan, that was too cute. I'll swap it over to the translated version yeah, good idea and thanks for the comments!

[ryguy266]

Originally Posted by Shadowking

Hmm, so yeah you're not entirely wrong about Kafnirra in some sense, but the way she's been powerful in the games I've been playing as is a positioning tool. If you group her up with MacDirks or Dreadguls, the opponent basically *has* to take her down first (like a sort of forced Raelin), they can take shots into the MacDirks' 2 defense if they want to but then you get the decision to not take wounds on her if they roll large overkill damage, so it can be interesting to pick targets when facing her in some cases. She basically says "these squaddies are gonna sit here around me" and acts as a decent health pool for them while moving up. It is kinda subtle, though, and probably a bit hard to visualize until you play (she also might benefit from it being "within 2 clear sight spaces" so you're not quite so limited in the squad needing to stick specifically and exactly around her space). As for the theme, I figured it worked along the lines of sort of Nordic "barbarian"/rugged hunter-esque types - despite them being wild and primal to some degree, the totem theme I thought worked well for them along the lines of guardian nature totems etc (Nerak is Wild and gives the Orc Defensive Aura, for another Classic 'Scape example). It is possible I think that her health should go back up to 6 (and/or her points should be adjusted), but her ranged attack also adds a different angle of flexibility for them and the hybrid role has been pretty interesting to play from my experiences.

I think you are correct for Jan, that was too cute. I'll swap it over to the translated version yeah, good idea and thanks for the comments!

I think the mentality of "having" to attack Kafnirra is a misplay, just like you don't "have" to attack Raelin. If I could shoot 2 defense figures to potentially wound Raelin, I would do that every time. While you might get the full squad first strike with the MacDirks that you otherwise normally wouldn't, I don't think the trade of 90 points is worth it, since they will all die in the next turn anyway.

Nerak defensive aura seems to work from him emboldening the orcs to fight with renewed ferocity, much like Grimnak and Tornak, if his short biography is considered. It's not that I dislike the idea of a nature guardian totem. I just don't understand why it would apply to MacDirks and Dreadguls, who are not part of Ullar's armies and have a personality not suited to it. There are 40 "Wild" units in VC scape; Jotun is the only one from Ullar. You could argue that VC expands the boundaries of classic scape, but the theme still just doesn't sit right.

On the other hand, I quite like the idea of her protecting Ullar squad figures. Guardian Totem feels right at home there. Changing her personality to something like "Protector" also gives her very interesting synergy with Greenscales and Zogross. Tons of options as cleanup or as a jumping off point for Monks or Armocs. Pushes the Ashra as an extremely viable screen option. Gives the Protectors that edge they need. That feels like it gives her much more tactical depth, rather than she just bonds and you keep the squad close until they die or she dies. That changes the way she plays quite drastically. But she would have a consistent and unique theme. That is just one suggestion; there are many ways to achieve that. But the SoV takes theme into consideration more than maybe any other factor, and I think (unlike your other potential submissions which have quite strong themes) Kafnirra does not meet those standards in her current form.

[Shadowking]

Originally Posted by ryguy266

I think the mentality of "having" to attack Kafnirra is a misplay, just like you don't "have" to attack Raelin. If I could shoot 2 defense figures to potentially wound Raelin, I would do that every time. While you might get the full squad first strike with the MacDirks that you otherwise normally wouldn't, I don't think the trade of 90 points is worth it, since they will all die in the next turn anyway.

Nerak defensive aura seems to work from him emboldening the orcs to fight with renewed ferocity, much like Grimnak and Tornak, if his short biography is considered. It's not that I dislike the idea of a nature guardian totem. I just don't understand why it would apply to MacDirks and Dreadguls, who are not part of Ullar's armies and have a personality not suited to it. There are 40 "Wild" units in VC scape; Jotun is the only one from Ullar. You could argue that VC expands the boundaries of classic scape, but the theme still just doesn't sit right.

On the other hand, I quite like the idea of her protecting Ullar squad figures. Guardian Totem feels right at home there. Changing her personality to something like "Protector" also gives her very interesting synergy with Greenscales and Zogross. Tons of options as cleanup or as a jumping off point for Monks or Armocs. Pushes the Ashra as an extremely viable screen option. Gives the Protectors that edge they need. That feels like it gives her much more tactical depth, rather than she just bonds and you keep the squad close until they die or she dies. That changes the way she plays quite drastically. But she would have a consistent and unique theme. That is just one suggestion; there are many ways to achieve that. But the SoV takes theme into consideration more than maybe any other factor, and I think (unlike your other potential submissions which have quite strong themes) Kafnirra does not meet those standards in her current form.

The difference between her and Raelin is that the decision to soak the wounds then goes into the hands of the player playing Kafnirra rather than just the dice, which can be pretty awkward for you and make your life tough if they play it well. I think it is usually correct (but not always) to go after the Macdirks in these cases, but by doing so you are letting the opponent have all the agency in terms of wounding her and if not then she's doing her job anyway by drawing fire. It may just mean her points cost is too high/her health is too low if she isn't able to deliver the correct amount of value in her role? Like 6 life or 70 points potentially (which would make her cheaper than a squad of Macdirks, so the trade-off of her allowing 1 squad to stay alive is then always worth it); I did try her at 6 life and it felt a bit obnoxious at times but not so much that it's like, 100% off the table to be reverted.

But yes, I do overall agree her theme is a bit weaker than the rest. I'm fairly confident something in this space can line up to make sense, but this might not be be it 100%; for example, D&D has a Barbarian bear totem specialization basically designed to be a tank by soaking damage but still uses its thematic rage mechanics etc to do so, which was the sort of theme I was trying to evoke here. I actually think she would fit under Jandar alright as well (since Macdirks, Alastair, the Tarn, and the Viking Champions already do) or even Einar, and wouldn't be opposed to moving her to one of those if I change some of the theme elements to better suit. The more Ullar-focused version you mentioned does sound interesting and I can look into that if it doesn't work out, but I'm sure there's some theme/power naming tweaks I can explore here to get it into a better spot first. It could maybe be like themed around "Glory in Death" or "To Die a Warrior's Death" or something like this, where she's soaking the damage since she doesn't want to be seen as cowardly to let other warriors die around her? Or something like "Marked/Bound for Valhalla", with a similar concept behind it. But yeah, more than open to suggestions on her theme etc from anyone.

[Shadowking]

OK, I've also done a deeper dive into the Wild personality units and this appears to be how they are roughly categorized in terms of what their "Wild" tag is trying to convey exactly/in detail:

1. Merciless:
Braxas
Black Wyrmling (because of Braxas)
Deathstalkers
A bunch of Marro units
Drow Chainfighter (I guess? This one is weird, might be more in the "berserker"-type category since it's a person wildly flinging around a chain as a weapon)
Sudema

2. Savage:
Bramcephys
A whole mess of Orc units
The two Ogre units
Pel the Hill Giant

3. A sort of berserker/"just attacking into the fray without care" kinda deal:
Guilty McCreech
Jotun
MacDirk Warriors
Tarn Viking Warriors
Dreadguls & Valguard
Wastewalker Gage

4. Primal creatures:
Dzu-teh
Fyorlag Spiders

Kafnirra fits nicely into working with stuff in the last two categories I think, less so with the first two. Since "Wild Human" units manages to tag everything thematically appropriate to her general overall concept as a wildlander/rugged "barbarian" type of hero (Macdirks, Tarn, Dreadguls) with the possible exception of Jotun - who already has 7 life and doesn't need the soaking anyway - and the Dzu-teh and Spiders (which would be a nice gain but are def. not core to her theme or mechanics) this could be a better avenue towards helping her thematically. It only tags Guilty and Wastewalker Gage as units that are "off-brand" (and neither pair with her particularly well other than "this hero is also in my Dreadgul army and she might want to soak a wound for them sometimes"). Thusly, rather than a nature-based guardian totem, relocating her under Einar or Jandar and going for more of a "clan-based guardian totem" feel could work, kinda positioning her as a leader of a group of these sorts of wild Human groupings (which also makes a lot of sense in what I concepted her to be) - Tarn, Macdirks and Dreadguls at least in my mind are all pretty similar units in terms of theme to each other, and are all tagged under this Wild personality trait.

EDIT: Jandar probably makes more sense than Einar there I think, since he has both the Tarn and Macdirks and also all the other Human Champions as a cross-section of her various attributes, so perhaps like this (I also *just* realized when looking at this card that every version of her has had the "attacking non-adjacent enemy figure" text in the 1st ability, and I never actually played her like that, it works on all attacks including from adjacent enemies - I think I just took the wording from somewhere else when putting together the render and it was a copy error not a gameplay error - I fixed that now here too):

[Scytale]

@Shadowking , despite this thread being a Workshop, it is not made for workshopping a bunch of units. It is to solicit feedback on units that are close to SoV submission to get comments before making that leap. People do this workshopping in your own thread.

[Shadowking]

Originally Posted by Scytale

@Shadowking , despite this thread being a Workshop, it is not made for workshopping a bunch of units. It is to solicit feedback on units that are close to SoV submission to get comments before making that leap. People do this workshopping in your own thread.

Fair enough; I had hoped they were, to be honest, but people have brought up a lot of good points that I hadn't really considered myself - I didn't get a ton of comments in my own thread on this stuff (although a couple of these were posted there in earlier forms); I can stop if I am breaking the thread's rules, but other than either putting them here or just sending them to the SoV thread as they were at the beginning (the versions I posted in this thread originally basically - they've actually changed very little in terms of wider functionality/vision, mostly just clean-up and such), it felt quite unlikely to get many notes on anything by just posting them in my own thread again - they weren't just like, my first drafts or anything I slapped into here. Either way I'm sorry if this was wrong, and thanks to everyone who gave me feedback regardless; I think at least Jan and Kafnirra are pretty close to being put into the SoV thread now in these more iterated forms and seeing what I hear back; I am still trying to learn exactly how the steps of this process work and what is expected.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Shadowking

Fair enough; I had hoped they were, to be honest, but people have brought up a lot of good points that I hadn't really considered myself - I didn't get a ton of comments in my own thread on this stuff (although a couple of these were posted there in earlier forms); I can stop if I am breaking the thread's rules, but other than either putting them here or just sending them to the SoV thread as they were at the beginning (the versions I posted in this thread originally basically - they've actually changed very little in terms of wider functionality/vision, mostly just clean-up and such), it felt quite unlikely to get many notes on anything by just posting them in my own thread again - they weren't just like, my first drafts or anything I slapped into here. Either way I'm sorry if this was wrong, and thanks to everyone who gave me feedback regardless; I think at least Jan and Kafnirra are pretty close to being put into the SoV thread now in these more iterated forms and seeing what I hear back; I am still trying to learn exactly how the steps of this process work and what is expected.

There are no hard and fast rules, but seeing a post with a bunch of unrelated units is a red flag. At least I don't really have the time or mental resources to do a full review of all of them. Focusing on one (or a couple at a time, from multiple posters) is already enough effort for the posters here to keep up with.

[caps]

Yes, please move the conversation to your thread. You can quote-post all the posts for them to bring the context over to there.

[Blue Trails]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Adding a power (probably) isn't the answer. It won't change the figures, it will just potentially muddy an already good design.

Oh; good call. Unfortunately, there isn't much I can do about the figures themselves, so I'll probably move forward with a submission once I've pinned down a satisfactory Species.

Originally Posted by Scytale

What's wrong with them being Undead? Undead in Heroscape is very broad, including things like Retchets.

Undead was tempting, but I had trouble moving past the lore-related consequences: with the exception of the Shades of Bleakwoode, which seem to just arise as a perversion of nature, the classic Undead units have all implicitly died at some point. If I'm remembering correctly, even the Retchets were resurrected as Undead by the Esenweins after being genocided by the Elves. Meanwhile, the Cwn Annwn are supernatural animals and are thus closer to the Eilan Sidhe or to Astroking's Yokai SoV submissions as denizens of an "otherworld."