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[Lord Pyre]

Originally Posted by jschild

See, both have the exact same problem in my mind...

They both have the brave white guy rushing in to save the day. At least in Avatar it's not diminishing actual history by inserting an American where there was none before.

There was a guy, but I think he was British. And he played a much smaller role.

My opinion might be different if Avatar came first, but Avatar just felt like a watered down Last Samurai to me. Of course it helps that I love samurai, and have lost a lot of interest in Sci-fi, but...

Just my opinion. I was still in awe of the effects, though.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by jschild

Lol, you do know that the Last Samurai is very, very predictable as well don't you? And that it horribly butchers the real history of the last Samurai (hint, American's aren't involved, nor were they involved in the real story of U-571).

Just saying, although I did enjoy the Last Samurai as well myself.

The storyline has been around a lot longer than Last Samurai (which was dung if you ask me). I swear, we can watch all these other movies that use well worn plots and not say a word, but when a movie of this magnitude uses them it all of a sudden gets criticized. I guess since everything else about this movie screamed innovation, the too familiar plolt is the only thing there to criticize. The plolt didn't bother me at all. I still watch Spartacus whenever I get a chance, and Dances with wolves is a pale shadow to Avatar and yet won academy awards even though it was a tired plot even then..

[jschild]

Amen!!!!!

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

...I swear, we can watch all these other movies that use well worn plots and not say a word, but when a movie of this magnitude uses them it all of a sudden gets criticized. I guess since everything else about this movie screamed innovation, the too familiar plolt is the only thing there to criticize.

Well, I just felt it was a lost opportunity. They spent all the time and money making a "next level" film and didn't invest in the pen and paper to write a "next level" script. To me, this film could have been "the next big thing" if it had even a marginally original plot. So many movies drop the ball with the script these days, it's just kind of sad. No one seems to want to spend a little extra time on the front end writing something interesting, they just seem to throw around some buzz words ("it's going to be like Mad Max, but with a Chick, and Zombies.") and worry about the story later.

Additionally, part of my beef with the film is beyond the general story. The painfully obvious foreshadowing and the carbon copy pacing of the battle scene really seemed lazy.

All that said, it's still one of the better movies out there and well worth checking out.

[jschild]

Cameron wanted to tell a well known story, but in a new way.

I think he fully succeeded considering that it droped less than 2% from less week which is amazing. A good drop is considered to be 20-33% with a typical drop from the first week being 50-60%.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by jschild

Cameron wanted to tell a well known story, but in a new way.

I think he fully succeeded considering that it droped less than 2% from less week which is amazing. A good drop is considered to be 20-33% with a typical drop from the first week being 50-60%.

Well, if that's all he wanted to do, then he succeeded. Seems like a pretty low goal to set for the maker of T2 and Aliens. I guess I was just hoping that a movie that he was putting so much effort into would be something really outstanding, as opposed to the same old thing with fancy new CG. I really don't see the point in that kind of exercise.

As for quoting box office numbers to prove a point, I think that's a terrible arguement. Some of the best films, TV shows, etc get little to no support from the LCD that makes up the majority of the American society. Isn't High School Musical the highest selling DVD and American Idol the top rated show? Most of the time, the more popular something is, the more horrific it is and the dimmer our future gets. Idiocracy here we come

[Agent Minivann]

I think all the hate is because of the marketing. All the hype is about how it is so amazing. It is implied that the story should likewise be amazing. It will get more criticism than it deserves because of this.

It kind of reminds me of all the hate on the Star Wars mentioning the story. They bag on the story when the original trilogy had an equivalent, if not simpler story.

I haven't seen it yet, but I think I have the story figured out from the previews. I might get a few surprises along the way, but I think I know what way the plot is going to go. My thoughts were Red Scorpion with a love interest.

[jschild]

T2 was a great movie, but essentially a rehash of the first movie - not very original at all.

Aliens was a great war movie, but again the basic story was the first with guns added. There is no real originality in it either.

Titanic? Traditional tragic love story, poor boy meets rich girl... none of these are "NEW" stories that we haven't seen before.

Also, you totally mistook what I was saying. Cameron didn't want to overreach and do too many different things to ENSURE the movie did well. He obviously succeeded in that goal. And considering that the movie essentially didn't drop at all, he's getting tons of word of mouth and repeat business - even the biggest movies don't drop 2% their second weekend. About the only movie I've heard of doing like that was another Cameron movie, Titanic - though Avatar won't reach that goal I'm sure.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by jschild

T2 was a great movie, but essentially a rehash of the first movie - not very original at all.

Aliens was a great war movie, but again the basic story was the first with guns added. There is no real originality in it either.

Seriously.... Have you seen Alien and Aliens? That makes me think that you haven't. Alien is a horror/suspense film where a science crew tries to survive against a lone alien on their ship. Aliens is an action film about a team of Marines sent down to investigate an Alien infestation and end up getting in over their head.

The story line was pretty cool. While it has some classic elements, it's hardly a re-tread. Aliens is very similar to Avatar. They both create really cool and unique worlds that have been (or will be in the case of Avatar) copied in many films to follow. The difference for me, is that Aliens had me on edge more because of the interesting story.

To say that there was no originality in Aliens is fairly offensive to me. Aliens set a standard in SciFi films that has been replicated and copied in countless films and TV shows. Hell, Avatar copies Aliens Mechs (which Matrix 3 also copied).

T2 was original in the way it framed action set pieces. Again, it's a film that set the standard for it's day and has been copied again and again. The story is mediocore in it's originality, but it's still fresher than Avatar.

[Lord Pyre]

Well, it is true that there's no originality left in the world, anyway. Any good stories were snatched right up by the ancient Greeks.

[jschild]

Originally Posted by Dignan

Seriously.... Have you seen Alien and Aliens? That makes me think that you haven't. Alien is a horror/suspense film where a science crew tries to survive against a lone alien on their ship. Aliens is an action film about a team of Marines sent down to investigate an Alien infestation and end up getting in over their head.

The story line was pretty cool. While it has some classic elements, it's hardly a re-tread. Aliens is very similar to Avatar. They both create really cool and unique worlds that have been (or will be in the case of Avatar) copied in many films to follow. The difference for me, is that Aliens had me on edge more because of the interesting story.

To say that there was no originality in Aliens is fairly offensive to me. Aliens set a standard in SciFi films that has been replicated and copied in countless films and TV shows. Hell, Avatar copies Aliens Mechs (which Matrix 3 also copied).

T2 was original in the way it framed action set pieces. Again, it's a film that set the standard for it's day and has been copied again and again. The story is mediocore in it's originality, but it's still fresher than Avatar.

Alien was an exceptionally well done (you didn't mention it originally anyway) horror movie - it's major originality came from 2 things - the "hero" dies early in the movie, catching everyone off guard and the real hero is the woman, something that was until then an extreme rarity in horror movies.

Aliens is not original except that again, a woman is the hero of the movie, not the marines. Is it a soleless retread? No, it's one of the greatest action movies of all time, but that does not make it original.

Avatar doesn't copy the mechs - in both cases James Cameron himself created them.

And as for T2, it action pieces were just bigger versions of what had been done before, by Cameron himself. The biggest innovation was the metal t1000, which was Cameron once again at the forefront of CGI, like he always has been.

[Agent Minivann]

Originally Posted by jschild

...Is it a soleless retread?...

Is that an oxymoron?