Public Design Workshop

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Mystique can only use Outcast Assault if she isn't Shapeshifted, which means that in that state she's vulnerable. In addition, she only has a melee attack of four (incidentally wondering why she doesn't have range like the other one, but I don't know her that well and there's probably a reason), her survivability is low, and she's actually more likely to fail Outcast Assault than to use it. I honestly can't see the attraction of putting an OM on her - if your roll for Outcast Ambush fails, then you're either moving up your weak commander unit without backup to get shot up or effectively skipping your turn. I've had the same issues with Mr. Fantastic in the past, which is why I hardly ever play the Adventurers, and they seem even more apparent here for less potential reward.

I do like the idea in general, but I'm wondering if maybe making a turn with one other Outcast automatic and maybe even making the turn with two a little more likely may make her more useful?

I think you're underestimating her a tad, plus she's intended to rely on Destiny (because of thematic reasons), meaning Destiny's boost should really be counted in when talking about Mystique II here. That said, one of the main things I wanted to discuss if Mystique got voted in was increasing her stats and/or lowering the rolls on her leadership power.

As to her being melee, there's a couple different reasons: 1) the mini being used is only wielding a knife, and she doesn't have any ranged super powers, 2) Mystique is often betrayed in comics as relying on her melee skills instead of a gun, 3) mechanically, it helps to differentiate the two versions of the character even more (since Mystique I is focused on being ranged). There wouldn't be a particular problem with giving her range, I just thing we're going to get a more interesting/thematic design if she's melee.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

For survivability's sake, CLOSE COMBAT EXPERT wouldn't be a terrible choice for a third power on that card, especially with a reduction to 3 attack and a range of 5.

I'd be willing to discuss CCE, though, as a personal thing, I don't find it very interesting on melee units. Personally, I think just upping her attack and/or defense to 5 would be simpler and better gameplay.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

SHAPESHIFTING IMPERSONATION is definitely a lot closer to the mark, V. I'm not sure it's the best possible, but "adjective IMPERSONATION" is definitely the right approach here, IMO.

We'll start with Shapeshifting Impersonation then, that's something that can be discussed easily if she's voted in.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Oh, and I was saying Robocop was significantly better than She-Hulk not on the basis of survivability (I think his one extra Life versus her healing is close to a wash most of the time), but on the basis of his much better arsenal in that write up.

Ah, I see what you're saying now.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

It is a two power card in which the two powers are working against each other. Since you can only use one power or the other for the whole turn, she really is a 1 power card. That makes for a pretty weak 'leader' figure. Also her leadership ability is not consistent enough to really build a team around.

I don't see how a 1 power card equals a weak leader, though as I've said I agree the current rolls are too high for her to be a very strong leader. The reason behind her not being able to use both powers at the same time is because, thematically, she can't give orders if her allies think she is someone else, and mechanically because an unattackable leader is quite powerful.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

If this is suppose to be a later version of her character, I'd drop the shapeshifting aspect all together. Her early career was as the shapeshifting spy who was afraid to appear in public as blue, that is well reflected in the Mystique we have. In her later days she held a leadership position and was confident/defiant enough to remain blue in public. Let this second version represent her leadership skills without trying to still make her the sneaky spy.

Now, I won't profess to be an expert of Mystique's character, but that's not really how I remember her character. Just because she's not embarrassed about her blue skin later in life doesn't mean she stops using her powers. I can think of plenty of story arcs where she's running around leading the brotherhood and using her powers, just not at the exact same moment. Personally, a Mystique design without any shapeshifting would just be unthematic, like an Xavier design with no telepathic powers or Superman without invulnerability. Plus, Mystique II isn't much of a sneaky spy, she is most definitely a leader, she just has an additional tool she can use to keep herself alive when she's not being a leader.

Overall, all issues brought up so far are ones that can easily be addressed if she's voted in, and in fact were ones I was planning on bringing up. Before this conversation started I was already thinking about increasing her offensive output and adjusting the rolls so that taking a turn with 1 other Outcast was almost automatic when paired with Destiny. But I don't feel comfortable making any changes right now in the middle of a vote.

[Lazy Orang]

I can certainly see your points, Viegon. I am wondering about the range thing, though. Yes, the figure may only be armed with a knife, but I'm not seeing a shotgun on Alfred's figure either, and I personally would most like to see her with a range of 5 and Close Combat Expert. That would mean that her close combat ability can be shown off, and give her more interesting game play, IMO. This may just be me, though, and it is your design.

I did forget about Destiny, btw, but I do still agree with you that the roll for Outcast Assault would still be best dropped. Also (knowing her thematically only from the 90s X-Men cartoons, so take this with a pinch of salt), I do agree with Viegon that the most thematic way of designing her would be to give her a shapeshifting power and Outcast Assault. Just off the top of my head, would making opponent's figures roll 1 less defence die against her while she's shapeshifted be a good idea? I'm just thinking that that could be thematic for taking them by surprise and offer more of a choice/tradeoff between Shapeshifting Impersonation and Outcast Assault, which may be an interesting interaction - may be talking out of my arse though.

[Smithy Winfred]

I have ended games in a single turn with Mr Fantastic, don't ever underestimate the Fan 4, they are easily to most powerful pod in the game. Giving Mystique that power was one of my main concerns about the design, it makes her almost too powerful as a command/control that I would never think of actually using her shapeshifting unless she was actually threatened. Her power is bringing together a lot of figures that could really use a power like that, plus Magneto has the ability to bring any other figure into the pod. Maybe playtesting will tell a different story, but until then, keep it as-is

[Lazy Orang]

I keep hearing this about Mr. Fantastic, but I've personally never seen it. Every single time I've played with or against him he's underperformed - I keep seeing him come out on his own or with one other, and that's always underwhelming. I'd almost rather take the other Adventurers on their own so I'm not spending 235 Points on a leader figure with weak combat potential whose leadership could so easily backfire - it just seems like a much too swingy premise to build an army around. I'm sure if your luck is on a triple Adventurer turn could pretty much crush anything, but the way I've seen him, he's always been decidedly weak, and just about any army worth his salt has been able to crush him and his Adventurers because of him. If I'm missing something, please tell me.

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I can certainly see your points, Viegon. I am wondering about the range thing, though. Yes, the figure may only be armed with a knife, but I'm not seeing a shotgun on Alfred's figure either, and I personally would most like to see her with a range of 5 and Close Combat Expert. That would mean that her close combat ability can be shown off, and give her more interesting game play, IMO. This may just be me, though, and it is your design.

I get what you're saying, and I can agree that would make for some solid gameplay affects; I'm just not yet sold on that being better, especially at the cost of pushing the visual of the mini and risking Mystique II becoming too close to the original.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Just off the top of my head, would making opponent's figures roll 1 less defence die against her while she's shapeshifted be a good idea? I'm just thinking that that could be thematic for taking them by surprise and offer more of a choice/tradeoff between Shapeshifting Impersonation and Outcast Assault, which may be an interesting interaction - may be talking out of my arse though.

I think I had something like that early in the design, but I was convinced to drop it for simplicity. That's the kind of thing I'd definitely want to explore if testing showed the tactical decision between her powers was too much in favor of Outcast Assault.

As to Mr. Fantastic, my experience with him falls in-between you two. I've had games where the Fan4 have been very strong, and I know from experience that a timely triple activation can be insanely powerful. But, I've also had experiences like Orang where they just can't pull it together right. It also depends on the match-up, if the Fan4 are facing mid- to high-level heavy hitters who are coming to them, keeping the Fan4 together is much easier and overall adds to their chances of winning; whereas if they face a sniper, they have to charge one of their members ahead and often lose them much earlier then they normally would. Overall though, in my experience, it's not Mr. Fantastic that makes them strong, but his wife, I would never play a Fan4 build without Invisible Woman.

I also don't think Mr. Fantastic and Mystique II can be compared quite that heavily. Sure, it's a similar mechanic, but:
1) Mystique can only activate up to 2 other units, not Mr. Fantastic's 3.
2) Most Mutant Outcast aren't nearly as strong as the other Adventurers like Human Torch, Thing, Silver Surfer, and She-Hulk, meaning those extra turns aren't as powerful (and while Magneto II opens things up, he is a lot of cost).
3) Mystique doesn't have the same survivability as Mr. Fantastic, even when compared to Mr. Fantastic without Invisible Woman.

Plus, Mystique is competing against units like Professor X, Sage, and Mastermind, who are all very good leaders for any mutant team. At Mystique's very best, she'll be getting three activations per turn, but with the chance of only activating herself; while at the same time, Xavier offers two automatic activations every single turn to any mutant, plus a killer defensive/protective power.

As to how to play the Fan4, I would say that you shouldn't be afraid to lose a turn when stuck using Mr. Fantastic alone. Invisible Woman is their strength in my opinion, and letting any of the Adventurers out of her aura unless forced to because of a particular enemy unit is a bad idea. Also consider putting OMs on the other Adventurers at times if you need to make sure they move up or if you they've got a good attack lined up that's not worth the risk of putting the OM on Mr. Fantastic. As a personal thing, I also never build Fan4 builds with The Thing anymore, he's too slow to keep up with his teammates and I prefer the fast (Super Leap) She-Hulk, who, as established in the previous conversation, is crazy tough.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I may well be underselling Mr. Fantastic, its just that I've never had a good experience with him, and I have tried him a few times. I'm sure that if your rolls are on he can be devastating, but whenever I've tried him I've ended up rolling a 1-3 at least once (usually several times) and just taking a turn with him. What are you supposed to do in that situation? Move up your leader with a single attack of four unsupported to get shot up (and Reed on his own isn't really the best combatant), or just abandon your turn? I'd actually be really interested to hear how you think he should be played, as they do look potentially really fun and I would like to try them without being blown off the board. Am I just having terrible luck, or am I not playing him right? In my experience he has been terribly flaky.

In that situation, it's OK to take a pot shot with Mister Fantastic's attack, but only if you don't put his health in major jeopardy. It's paramount to keep Mister Fantastic in range of Invisible Woman's force field, and at the same time to keep her as far out of harm's way as possible. If this means giving up your attack a few times in the game, that's OK, because it will help you survive long enough to get those multiple turns, and when the big rolls do hit, the patience pays off. The best way to deal with swingy D20 figures is to make sure you have enough rolls to get an average output.

Mister Fantastic also has another advantage that really helps when paired with Invisible Woman. You can use his Rubber Wrap to lock down would-be assassin figures and render them incapable of attacking Invisible Woman. If Invisible Woman is engaged, as long as Mister Fantastic hits 4+ on his next turn, you always want to disengage her and keep her safe, while positioning Mister Fantastic as necessary to lock up would be attackers.

The swinginess is a real thing, for sure, but the best approach, IMO, is to stay conservative when the swings are poor and play defensive, so that you can hopefully survive long enough for the swings to be great!

That said, they hate mind control!

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I would like to have an Outcast 'leader' as I have played the Outcast faction a few times and they are missing a lynchpin unit to make them work better as a cohesive unit. Lots of good synergy but difficult to manage and execute in comparison to other teams.

IMO, throwing Mastermind into an Outcast team for easy Order Marker management, and then building everything else around the Magneto II/Destiny combo can really make things work well.

[Yodaking]

That is true Bats, I have not played the Outcast since Mastermind was released. I have not even printed out his card or picked up the figure yet. It seems I can't keep up with all the releases.

Perhaps the Outcast leadership power should not effect Magneto I or II though. Having her order him around seems like a theme break and he is easily the most powerful figure she would bond with. Leaving him out of the bonding would keep her point cost down.

[Lazy Orang]

Thanks for the tips with Mr. Fantastic - I may have to try an Adventurer army again before long.

With Mystique, I think that the leadership power, lack of Agent synergies, additional Outcast synergies, and the fact that all of her powers are different seems like you've made her very distinct from the original version without making her melee as well, and as I said, Alfred doesn't have his shotgun on the figure. I think this probably comes down to a theme issue. How often did she use guns when acting as a leader of the Brotherhood - regularly, semi-regularly, or rarely?

I do think that if Outcast Assault's going to be worthwhile enough to be worth taking her, then Shapeshifting Impersonation's going to only get rare use. Again, theme probably comes into it - did she use Shapeshifting only to get out of scrapes when acting as a leader, or did she use it for assassinations/spying as well? If the latter, it needs a little more to be worthwhile doing that with, IMO.

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

That is true Bats, I have not played the Outcast since Mastermind was released. I have not even printed out his card or picked up the figure yet. It seems I can't keep up with all the releases.

You should try him out, he's definitely worth 90 points in my opinion, I end up using him in testing quite a lot.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Perhaps the Outcast leadership power should not effect Magneto I or II though. Having her order him around seems like a theme break and he is easily the most powerful figure she would bond with. Leaving him out of the bonding would keep her point cost down.

Because it makes more sense for Xavier to command Magneto around then for Magneto to help Mystique's team? Personally, those kind of wonky interactions/themes is what makes C3G so cool. I can have Xavier be leading around all the evil mutants, Harley Quinn now hangs out with Green Goblin and Carnage, and Alfred and Robin now support Daredevil. Compared to most of those kind of things, Magneto letting Mystique call the shots (which I pretty sure has happened in the comics) isn't strange one bit for me. Plus, how would you word that without it coming off entirely bizarre and forced?

As to balance, I'm not worried about it at all, I don't see anyway that Mystique could somehow become a better synergizer with the Magnetos then Xavier, Mastermind, Sage, or Apocalypse are.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

With Mystique, I think that the leadership power, lack of Agent synergies, additional Outcast synergies, and the fact that all of her powers are different seems like you've made her very distinct from the original version without making her melee as well, and as I said, Alfred doesn't have his shotgun on the figure.

Agreed, they're already very different, but I feel the first Mystique's big focus is her range, and giving this one range just doesn't feel quite right. If a majority really wanted it, I'd be willing to make the change, but my preference is for melee.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I think this probably comes down to a theme issue. How often did she use guns when acting as a leader of the Brotherhood - regularly, semi-regularly, or rarely?

She's been around so long and been the leader of the Brotherhood so many times it's hard to tell, but the kind of Mystique I'm used to and am modeling this design on rarely would use a gun, she'd fight in hand to hand combat a great majority of the time.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I do think that if Outcast Assault's going to be worthwhile enough to be worth taking her, then Shapeshifting Impersonation's going to only get rare use. Again, theme probably comes into it - did she use Shapeshifting only to get out of scrapes when acting as a leader, or did she use it for assassinations/spying as well? If the latter, it needs a little more to be worthwhile doing that with, IMO.

Again, not easy to answer because she's been around so long. For what I'm envisioning, she's going to stay in her normal form most of the time, but use her powers every now and then to mess with the opponent and get herself out of tricky spots.

[Lord Pyre]

Definitely melee.

[Tornado]

I have complete faith in you V.

I am looking forward to this one. It sounds like you are more passionate for this, than for Vertigo.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

Definitely melee.

Yeah, I've been won over on this as well. She should be worth making a melee attack with, though!