The Book of Winter Soldier (Team-Up)

[MrNobody]

I guess the question is more - do we want to pump the brakes and do anything about it now? I mean, modifying existing units (especially Cap) feels like a step over the line, but is it something that needs a closer eye before passing two new Soldier pieces? (Soldier of the Winter and Soldier of the Super.)

Honestly not saying we absolutely need to, just feel like it's a point worth raising. I generally get nervous when a faction goes from non-competitive to highly competitive over a short amount of time, since it feels like there's a lot more potential to accidentally create something over-powerful when there's less play experience with the faction. (Compared to something like Titans, where everyone has a lot more understanding of the metagame around them.) And I'd hate to see Joes be at a disadvantage as a semi-independent faction just cause a few other Soldier units are overly effective.

[Tornado]

That sums up my feelings as well. I feel bad that the Joes have to keep paying a tax to where they may not be great in an all Joe build.
Great point about it bring new. It is possible the Soldiers are not being played to their full potential because we do not have a lot of experience with them yet.

[Lazy Orang]

Would this help tone the guy down? Might be a little strong for full turn bonding r/n, but what about:

MILITARY DUO
After revealing an Order Marker on the Army Card of a Unique Soldier or Agent Hero you control, you may do either (or both?) of the following:

• Instead of moving with that Unique Hero, move Winter Soldier;
• Instead of attacking with that Unique Hero, attack with Winter Soldier.

******************
So he can move instead of Cap, or provide covering fire while he moves, but he's not getting full turn bonding.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Tornado

That sums up my feelings as well. I feel bad that the Joes have to keep paying a tax to where they may not be great in an all Joe build.
Great point about it bring new. It is possible the Soldiers are not being played to their full potential because we do not have a lot of experience with them yet.

Also possible they’re demonstrating extra value because their counters aren’t well known yet. The Raven/Stargirl/Nightwing trio is a lot more manageable if you commit to taking out Starfire first and foremost going into the game.

[MrNobody]

I think that actually has the potential to be just as strong, since it stacks with Rock. Reveal an OM on Rock, move him into engagement, attack with WS, take a turn with any non-Rock Soldier, then attack with Grunt. That's every turn, guaranteed, until you take somebody out, and if you have Cap and Rock is engaged, that's +2 attack for all 3 of those potential attacks.

Is WS the (hypothetical) problem unit in the faction though? They seem plenty strong without him already.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Also possible they’re demonstrating extra value because their counters aren’t well known yet. The Raven/Stargirl/Nightwing trio is a lot more manageable if you commit to taking out Starfire first and foremost going into the game.

That's the counterpoint to the argument, for sure.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

I think that actually has the potential to be just as strong, since it stacks with Rock. Reveal an OM on Rock, move him into engagement, attack with WS, take a turn with any non-Rock Soldier, then attack with Grunt. That's every turn, guaranteed, until you take somebody out, and if you have Cap and Rock is engaged, that's +2 attack for all 3 of those potential attacks.

Throw on the 'no additional turns language' I forgot because I did it quickly and didn't entirely think it through?

[IAmBatman]

How strong are most Soldier armies if you take out Rock fast/early?

[MrNobody]

The one I played Game 2 of the Super Soldier tests felt fairly nasty, even without Rock. Part of that just comes down to, like I said in the thread, the fact that X-Men are always going to struggle against Cap's defense as a group of low-level heroes. But even discounting that, it was still a nasty group. Bradley makes mobility a breeze, Bloodshot is a damage-dealing monster, and Bucky can be way more effective than he should be when he gets to go every turn.

[Arch-vile]

Honestly guys I'd like to see another Sanctum tester run Winter Soldier at the increased point cost before we nerf him to the ground. He doesn't offer a ton to the faction by himself, as he just bonds with a single unit and throws a single unblockable die per round.

If we're looking to depower Winter Soldier further, I'd prefer to reduce the range on Got Your Six or take his survivability down. But I'm fine with just bumping his cost. Obviously Captain America is an A+ design and giving him synergy is going to cost. (Sgt. Rock is probably a bit underpriced too, to be honest.)

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I agree with that approach, fwiw. Just trying to suss out the question of the "Soldier Tax" since it's coming up here and on Super Soldier both.

[Arkham]

Fwiw, I think there’s a good chance some of you are jumping the gun on making the Soldier faction out to be better than it really is.

I haven’t looked over the results thoroughly, but a bunch of relatively inexperienced testers coming with wins isn’t something that strikes me as a concern. Simply winning most games does not mean it’s the tested unit’s doing either. The opposing army makeup, luck, how close the final results were(5-1 when the games could have gone either way, rather than blowouts, etc.), and strategy or lack there of, are all important to consider before sounding the alarm bell.

[MrNobody]

I think it's just worth taking a pause to talk about it mostly. Not yet convinced it exists. Generally agree with not nerfing Winter Soldier quite yet, since if there is a "problem" with the faction he doesn't even really seem to be it.