The Book of Sacred Band

[Hero Hot Hatch]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

These guys are really out shined by the Romans. The only advantage they have is being able to spread out while keeping 3 defence.

Like everything in HeroScape, it all depends... For instance, the Sacred Band are a lot more effective against samurais than the Romans and have more staying power. The Defy Death power given to them by being adjacent to Parmenio gives them a 30% chance of surviving counter strikes and overall successful attacks. If you have to face samurais on hand to hand combat, use the Sacred Band over the Romans. I saw this happen yesterday so many times that it looked unreal how many times 15 was rolled (a 30% probability is not bad afterall). As such, if I'm facing samurais, in addition to using range against them I would recruit Parmenio and the Sacred Band no questions asked over the Romans any time.

[Sisyphus]

Originally Posted by Hero Hot Hatch

Like everything in HeroScape, it all depends... For instance, the Sacred Band are a lot more effective against samurais than the Romans and have more staying power. The Defy Death power given to them by being adjacent to Parmenio gives them a 30% chance of surviving counter strikes and overall successful attacks. If you have to face samurais on hand to hand combat, use the Sacred Band over the Romans. I saw this happen yesterday so many times that it looked unreal how many times 15 was rolled (a 30% probability is not bad afterall). As such, if I'm facing samurais in addition to using range I would recruit Parmenio and the Sacred Band no questions asked over the Romans any time.

Or you can reduce counterstrike by having Marcus with his attack bonus instead of Parmenio. Against ranged I would also prefer Marcus to Parmenio since the movement bonus will make it easier to engage the ranged threats. You can still use the Sacred Band it is just that the Sacred Band basically requires you to have an all disciplined force (which is difficult) and they have less bonding options than the Legionnaires.

[Oyhedwig]

The Sacred Band and Parmenio are the only figures that I own that I have never played. I own everything but Wave 7. The SB do not seem like they would be worthwhile at all with only one, or even two squads. Seems like you need at least three to get any real use out of them. And I only own two squads.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by Oyhedwig

The Sacred Band and Parmenio are the only figures that I own that I have never played. I own everything but Wave 7. The SB do not seem like they would be worthwhile at all with only one, or even two squads. Seems like you need at least three to get any real use out of them. And I only own two squads.

They really have to be played with Marcus, to make up for their abysmal speed. They're not as bad as you might think, but the Romans are still much better because of their more versatile bonding.

[Hero Hot Hatch]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

They really have to be played with Marcus, to make up for their abysmal speed. They're not as bad as you might think, but the Romans are still much better because of their more versatile bonding.

I do agree with the "overall assessment" that the romans are more versatile. I actually like them more, too. I did a custom paint job on the shields (the stickers did not cut it for me). The Shield Wall is awsome, but it does not help with counter strike, which is exactly what I'm referring to. Specifically against samurais the sacred band (with Parmenio of course) has more staying power even without a complete disciplined army. Try it or play test it and you'll see. It's not theory. I've seen it and I've done it. That's if you want to risk hand to had combat against samurais, sacred band beats the romans.

[Roufus]

Especially if you do what I did and boost their base speed +1 (and paramenios too). They shouldn't be the same speed as the highly armored knights of weston and roman legion.

Then they become MUCH better. They can spread out, and outpace the romans. They become... dare I say it... a worthwhile choice.


Most of my other edits (from about a year and a half ago) have since been removed due to more things coming out balancing them. But these guys just need that LITTLE fire under their butt to make them faster than the romans.

[Sisyphus]

Originally Posted by Hero Hot Hatch

he Shield Wall is awsome, but it does not help with counter strike, which is exactly what I'm referring to. Specifically against samurais the sacred band (with Parmenio of course) has more staying power even without a complete disciplined army. Try it or play test it and you'll see. It's not theory. I've seen it and I've done it. That's if you want to risk hand to had combat against samurais, sacred band beats the romans.

Again, not really. Both Marcus + Romans and Parmenio + Greeks do well against Samurai(or rather most commons do) but if anything the Romans are better. Yes Parmenio will save 30% of Greek counterstrike victims but what is even more affective is that Marcus reduces the chance of counterstrike by providing +1 attack. Plus the Romans will kill more of the Samurai then the Greeks will do because of the same +1 attack.

[Hero Hot Hatch]

One additional attack die gives you a 50% of getting another skull vs. a 33% of getting a samurai getting a shield assuming that the samurais' counter strike is not boosted by Hatamoto, which would be a 50% chance. To keep it simple, and for illustrating purposes only, a 30% probability of surviving anything (of course unless destroyed, etc.) is better than the difference in probabilities, which is just under 17%. 30% is almost twice that difference. Believe me, if you have to face samurais on hand-to-hand combat you are better off with Greeks and Parmenio than with the Romans and Marcus DG. In fact, the presence of Hatamoto would virtually eliminate the additional attack by Romans when it comes to probabilities of neutralizing counter strike, but that presence does not impact at all the 30% of Defy Death 15.

I reiterate again that overall the Romans are "better", but not against samurais on most circumstances. There are always exceptions like all in HeroScape. Additionally, one can always boost the attack of the Greeks just like you do for the Romans. Again, this is not only theory. It works.

[NecroBlade]

I'll take the better chance at killing someone over a chance at not dieing any day. If I have a better shot at killing them, there is also that much less chance they're going to Counter Strike, thus negating the need for Defy Death anyway. Face it, Marcus & the Romans are better.

Also, I'm no statistician, but I'm willing to bet someone will show up to prove your numbers wrong.

[Sisyphus]

Originally Posted by Hero Hot Hatch

One additional attack die gives you a 50% of getting another skull vs. a 33% of getting a samurai getting a shield assuming that the samurais' counter strike is not boosted by Hatamoto, which would be a 50% chance. To keep it simple, and for illustrating purposes only, a 30% probability of surviving anything (of course unless destroyed, etc.) is better than the difference in probabilities, which is just under 17%. 30% is almost twice that difference. Believe me, if you have to face samurais on hand-to-hand combat you are better off with Greeks and Parmenio than with the Romans and Marcus DG. In fact, the presence of Hatamoto would virtually eliminate the additional attack by Romans when it comes to probabilities of neutralizing counter strike, but that presence does not impact at all the 30% of Defy Death 15.

I reiterate again that overall the Romans are "better", but not against samurais on most circumstances. There are always exceptions like all in HeroScape. Additionally, one can always boost the attack of the Greeks just like you do for the Romans. Again, this is not only theory. It works.

I am not quite sure what you are doing with the probabilities there but whatever you are doing it is not correct. If a Greek attacks a defense 3 Samurai, he has a 20% chance of being counterstruck. Of course, if Parmenio is adjacent the Greek has a 30% of surviving(or 70% chance of dieing). Therefore an attack on a defense 3 Samurai will result in death by counterstrike is 14% (=0.2 * 0.7) of the time. A Roman boosted by Marcus to attack 4 will only suffer from counterstrike 12.3% of the time which is less often than a Greek will even with Defy Death. If you are fighting against defense 5 Samurai(Izumi or Kozuke) then the chances of dieing are almost exactly the same for both Romans and Greeks (27.9% vs. 27.7%) However, in all these cases the Romans will kill more than the Greeks due to their higher attack.

I am not sure what will happen if Hatomoto is in the game as I don't have probability tables generated for that but it is my opinion that if you are fighting against Hatomoto you probably are on your way to victory anyway.

[Jexik]

I think it's weird to assume that Romans are always adjacent to Marcus and that Parmenio is always adjacent to the Sacred Band.

It's also weird to think that you can't bring Marcus with the Sacred Band.

The reason that Romans are better than the Sacred Band is because they have more bonding options and fewer drafting restrictions. That's it.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Originally Posted by Jexik

I think it's weird to assume that Romans are always adjacent to Marcus and that Parmenio is always adjacent to the Sacred Band.

That's a good point. I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way, but I can never seem to have Parmenio in the right spot at the right time. This probably influences why I am practically never the Sacred Band.