Good Pig's Cabinet of Curiosities - NEW Deathwalker 10,000

[caps]

I disagree. He still looks overpriced to me at 160. He has no multi attack and squad figures can just decline to roll when he leaves engagement. He can hit hard now and then but big hitting single attackers aren't usually worth a ton of points in Classic.

[Good Pig]

Originally Posted by caps

I disagree. He still looks overpriced to me at 160. He has no multi attack and squad figures can just decline to roll when he leaves engagement. He can hit hard now and then but big hitting single attackers aren't usually worth a ton of points in Classic.

I think having figures decline to roll for leaving engagement is the point. It gives him a pseudo disengage, which when paired with Galloping Charge, it means he can easily line up his next attack for 7 dice.

You're right about the points though. If I compare him to Eltahale as a draft option I'd most certainly want her for 20 points cheaper because of the special attack that can hit 3 figures.

I think Move 8, the ability to disengage most of the time, and the ability to hit for 7 (8 on height) has to be worth something. He could then really use his movement to his advantage if he's no longer tied to a slow moving knights army. Perhaps be a great figure to assassinate Raelin or another figure you want spot removed.

What about 130-140?

[Knox]

@Good Pig this whole project is very interesting, & I wanted to share some thoughts and ask some questions about multilife squads.

Some thoughts.
- In general terms, running a 3L unique squad seems equivalent to running 3x of a common squad, however there are some major differences. Initially I wondered why you didn't just multiply life*points but then I realized there were some big things to figure out.

1. Development: This is a massive buff for the unique squads. Now, instead of wasting OMs developing at the back of the army I can charge in full throttle with 1 squad, claiming the advantage early. It's as though all 12 of my figures are moving at once, and whenever one gets hit it doesn't cost me a thing bc the same unit remains at the front of the battle just with 1 less life.

2. Fragility: this is a massive nerf to the unique squads. If I'm running 3L heavy gruts and 1 gets hit for 3 wounds, that costs me 1/3 of my army. However, with normal common squads a big hit like that would just be 1/12 of my figures. That really hurts and needs to be factored into cost (which I think you did)

3. Off of this, how do you handle instakill abilities? It would seem like Braxas, Tor-Kul-Na, Grimnak, & Cyprien would be the very top tier of the multilife squad meta unless they are significantly re-costed (double the cost?), adjusted, or banned.

Just wondering how much you've playtested and how you've seen these factors come into play with this new iteration of the game you're making (it really is an entirely different strategy and meta)

[caps]

Originally Posted by Good Pig

I think having figures decline to roll for leaving engagement is the point. It gives him a pseudo disengage, which when paired with Galloping Charge, it means he can easily line up his next attack for 7 dice.

You're right about the points though. If I compare him to Eltahale as a draft option I'd most certainly want her for 20 points cheaper because of the special attack that can hit 3 figures.

I think Move 8, the ability to disengage most of the time, and the ability to hit for 7 (8 on height) has to be worth something. He could then really use his movement to his advantage if he's no longer tied to a slow moving knights army. Perhaps be a great figure to assassinate Raelin or another figure you want spot removed.

What about 130-140?

That's closer. Is he better than Krug?

[Good Pig]

Originally Posted by caps

That's closer. Is he better than Krug?

Great question.

No bonding options. Limited synergy with Concan. Both are double spaced and have large/huge immunities.

I would say his main advantages are his speed of 8 and his ability to hit hard right out of the gates without waiting for your opponent to soften him up.

I would say maybe on par with Krug. His usefulness is really going to depend on the map and what other units you have drafted.

120 it is.

[Good Pig]

Originally Posted by Knox

@Good Pig this whole project is very interesting, & I wanted to share some thoughts and ask some questions about multilife squads.

Some thoughts.
- In general terms, running a 3L unique squad seems equivalent to running 3x of a common squad, however there are some major differences. Initially I wondered why you didn't just multiply life*points but then I realized there were some big things to figure out.

1. Development: This is a massive buff for the unique squads. Now, instead of wasting OMs developing at the back of the army I can charge in full throttle with 1 squad, claiming the advantage early. It's as though all 12 of my figures are moving at once, and whenever one gets hit it doesn't cost me a thing bc the same unit remains at the front of the battle just with 1 less life.

2. Fragility: this is a massive nerf to the unique squads. If I'm running 3L heavy gruts and 1 gets hit for 3 wounds, that costs me 1/3 of my army. However, with normal common squads a big hit like that would just be 1/12 of my figures. That really hurts and needs to be factored into cost (which I think you did)

3. Off of this, how do you handle instakill abilities? It would seem like Braxas, Tor-Kul-Na, Grimnak, & Cyprien would be the very top tier of the multilife squad meta unless they are significantly re-costed (double the cost?), adjusted, or banned.

Just wondering how much you've playtested and how you've seen these factors come into play with this new iteration of the game you're making (it really is an entirely different strategy and meta)

Thanks for providing your thoughts and feedback. There's definitely pros and cons to consider with multi-life squad units. However, I'll argue having different weaknesses and strengths for units is nothing new to Heroscape. Death walkers stand up great to single hit heroes with mediocre attack but go down hard to squads or heaven forbid d20 abilities that bypass defenses altogether. Figures with Tough or defensive powers that only work against normal attacks dread Q9 or other special attacks. Figures with high defense and low life are scared to disengage. I think it's just part of the variety that makes the game interesting. Rock smashes scissors but gets owned by paper. Ultimately you need a plan for what to do when a bad matchup like Grimnak or Braxas comes along. Keep your multi-life squaddies in the back until their main threat is dealt with? Banning is something I believe only happens as a last resort for any competitive game. I don't think messing with existing Heroes point costs is the way to go either.

I think it will be interesting to see what happens with AoA previews or eventual release. It's been confirmed that tiny wound markers are to be used with large squad figures, most likely one or both polar bear squads. While I haven't tested these new custom units in the OP out yet, I'll bet the War Council working on AoA is making certain multi-life squads is a workable for a product that's going to be mass produced.

[TREX]

Great looking templates @Good Pig . Very cool simple but elegant playing card design. I've never thought to have a predate gradient sitting in the template so the pics could slide behind it like that. I'm a long time photoshop guy. I especially like your use of Allthingsheroscapes mini pics. Despite their horrendous prices they do have good pictures lol. I need to hurry up with my Heroscape Unleashed variant pdf update. It would solve you needing to make these unique and you could just use them as is just fine. I don't mind multi life squaddies though. I think the AoTP game did fine with them.

[Good Pig]

Thanks @TREX now I'm really curious about your new rules variant.

Ha! You caught that with the pictures.

I'd be happy to share the psd for the template with you if you're interested. I was trying to mimic the smoke layer from the original cards, but make it easy on myself since I know I'll be making a ton of these cards.

The only flaw I've found with the template is that some of the most text heavy units I've not been able to fit everything. Nakita Agents and Shurrak so far. I was debating doing a new taro card sized template, but I don't want to redo the other 70 I've already completed. Likely I'll just shrink the space used for their image so I can make the text box taller.

[TREX]

Originally Posted by Good Pig

Thanks @TREX now I'm really curious about your new rules variant.

Ha! You caught that with the pictures.

I'd be happy to share the psd for the template with you if you're interested. I was trying to mimic the smoke layer from the original cards, but make it easy on myself since I know I'll be making a ton of these cards.

The only flaw I've found with the template is that some of the most text heavy units I've not been able to fit everything. Nakita Agents and Shurrak so far. I was debating doing a new taro card sized template, but I don't want to redo the other 70 I've already completed. Likely I'll just shrink the space used for their image so I can make the text box taller.

Thanks for offering to share the psd file. I think when and if I get back to custom making it would be a cool thing to use. For now I need to put extra hobby time into finishing up my pdf. I took it down awhile back so I could make a nicer overall look to it and add a bunch of cool stuff and change a few things. I've been pretty sick with my chrones disease and chronic pancreatitus lately so I'm pretty hit and miss when it comes to getting extra hobby stuff done. I've used allthingsheroscapes pictures to ironically paint a bunch of my 3d prints on figures I'd no longer had original figures for. 3d printing makes getting extra squads pretty cheap and easy. My brother has a store where he sells them pretty reasonably. You may have heard of Trexy3d.com. that's his website. I'm the one who taught him how to resin print, and now he does 3d printing as his full time job. I'll make it a goal to get this pdf done so a bunch of people can enjoy it. I know that once it's done, me and my one brother plan on doing a bunch of cool customs for it. This variant that allows all figures to play every turn won't need as much tweaking to keep them balanced. If all figures take a turn, and each figure only gets one turn, it makes them easier to balance, and all their strengths are dubbed down a little.

[Good Pig]

Originally Posted by TREX

Thanks for offering to share the psd file. I think when and if I get back to custom making it would be a cool thing to use. For now I need to put extra hobby time into finishing up my pdf. I took it down awhile back so I could make a nicer overall look to it and add a bunch of cool stuff and change a few things. I've been pretty sick with my chrones disease and chronic pancreatitus lately so I'm pretty hit and miss when it comes to getting extra hobby stuff done. I've used allthingsheroscapes pictures to ironically paint a bunch of my 3d prints on figures I'd no longer had original figures for. 3d printing makes getting extra squads pretty cheap and easy. My brother has a store where he sells them pretty reasonably. You may have heard of Trexy3d.com. that's his website. I'm the one who taught him how to resin print, and now he does 3d printing as his full time job. I'll make it a goal to get this pdf done so a bunch of people can enjoy it. I know that once it's done, me and my one brother plan on doing a bunch of cool customs for it. This variant that allows all figures to play every turn won't need as much tweaking to keep them balanced. If all figures take a turn, and each figure only gets one turn, it makes them easier to balance, and all their strengths are dubbed down a little.

Sorry to hear that. I totally understand real life getting in the way of the things we'd rather be doing. I'd personally taken a long break from Heroscape, this website, and had sold off much of my collection not thinking I'd have time to use it. But here we are. Like an addict back for his fix.

I saw some info you posted in another thread about resin 3d printing and a link to trexy3d.com. I checked it out and I thought the pricing looked very reasonable. Right now I have a Creality Ender 3 Pro (PLA) printer and I've been using that for terrain and other odds and ends. The more I see prices for resin printers fall I want to get one for printing miniatures. If I go that route I'll be printing off my own stuff, but if not I'll keep your bro's site in mind.

I had an idea for a 3d print product that you may be interested for your own use or selling commercially if it makes sense. A 3d printed Heroscape dice tower that integrates with the battlefield. It would utilize the "pill box" idea on Thingiverse if you know what I'm talking about. The top of the dice tower could have a 7-hex as a cap and there could be a spiraling stair case that wrapped around the outside. Maybe it's a bad idea, but I want to explore it some more.

[TREX]

@Good Pig , funny you'd bring up dice towers. I've been making a ton of dice towers and dice trays over the years. The last few years I've been using fdm printed accenting that I designed and printed on my dice trays and dicetowers. Unfortunately, the amount of time and energy along with the cost of materials has made them not terribly profitable. In short, you'll probably have fun making them but I'm not sure they'll be too profitable sold commercially. I'm currently getting eaten alive by ebay selling my dice tray and dice tower stock right now. I am not planning on adding any additional ones. I have made some fun dice trays that are built into wargaming buildings for star wars legion. I'd love to see what you come up with. I've easily built over 1000 dice trays/towers in my life time and can say that I've perfected the ideal dimensions for optimal performance.

[caps]

I still regularly use my Trex tree-looking dice tower I won in a map contest years ago. My Pathfinder players always said it gave me a dice edge, ha ha. I'll be sad if/when it ever wears out. Seems to be pretty durable so far.