Classic Heroscape Power Rankings

[Dad_Scaper]

Incorrect.

What kills Krug is that he can be ignored until the opponent feels like dealing with him. His attack is low, his move is low, so the battle against him will be fought at the time and the place of the opponent's choosing. He only gets strong when the opponent feels like letting that happen.

On the other hand, in one-on-one combat he beats every hero in the game except one.

[yamissflash]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Well met

Is there a serious objection to including VC the specific forums here, as opposed to creating them specifically for VC?

Its simply a matter of labels. Putting custom units, even very well tested ones, in the Official Heroscape section just doesn't make sense.

[Dad_Scaper]

. . . and some of the C3V units affect the grades of some of the classic units. It's good to have two sets, one for people using those units, one for those playing without.

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Incorrect.

What kills Krug is that he can be ignored until the opponent feels like dealing with him. His attack is low, his move is low, so the battle against him will be fought at the time and the place of the opponent's choosing. He only gets strong when the opponent feels like letting that happen.

On the other hand, in one-on-one combat he beats every hero in the game except one.

Unless of course you decide to power up Krug yourself.

But yeah, hordes of commons in general, if they can get to him early, will bring him down quicker than you'd think.

[nich535]

Originally Posted by Ixe

Hi @nich535 and welcome to the site! I assume that your double post was a mistake, but you want to be careful at posting posts with the same general content as a rule.

I hear your call to make Krug a higher ranking, though you aren't really supplying an argument beyond the posted video. Krug is a well loved and still powerful hero but there are many units and builds that he has trouble with, particularly ranged squads can chip through his low defense and whittle his health down. As such he is still good but has some weaknesses that can be exploited that otherwise prevent him from having too high of a ranking.

Do you have further reason for why he should be ranked higher? In general, we appreciate posts that extend conversation instead of a statement and a link to a video created by other users on the site.

I'm sorry about the double post, it was a mistake. I guess krug's just one of my favorite characters to play with, and I will be back soon with more evidence.

[Foudzing]

Originally Posted by The B.I.V.

I'm glad you stated that it's your opinion that this thread is outdated. Where do you get the idea that "most Competitive Heroscape uses C3V units, though? We haven't allowed them here in my neck of the woods and I even lobbied for them this year (not that I use them, but for those that do). They still didn't get allowed at our NHSD tourney...

The competetive scene is now the Online one, it's by far the regular tournaments with the most players, and it uses VC.
Your NSHD tourney had 9 players whereas an Online Heroscape season has 25~50 players...

The only tournament with that much players is Gencon but as Rÿchean stated it shouldn't be "the norm" because time is a major issue there (use of RtW instead of better formats like Bring2, Cut the Cake, Pool Draft etc...)

[Dad_Scaper]

Foudzing, do not lightly dismiss the face to face tournament scene. Without it, none of this would be here. I assure you that I, and many of the other members of the C3V, play in local competitive events but not online.

I knew what you meant in your original post, but people come to this site to inform their own decisions, about their own local games and small tournaments, as well they should. And some of them do not accept C3V into their games, and that's ok, because they should play their games how they want.

[TheAverageFan]

I know a lotta guys who don't accept the Customs (heck, I know people who don't even accept D&D Heroscape). I don't mind the separate rankings to accommodate for that fact, since it's only a short scroll down to get to the Custom rankings (which conveniently include the adjusted Classic rankings too).

I can't speak for anyone else, but a vast majority of my games are still played at home, where house rules reign supreme. I wouldn't want Customs mixed in with Classic rankings if I didn't accept them for whatever reason.

~TAF

[kevindola]

So did we decide Blade Gruts were better than Nagrubs by the score of 1-0? I forget what we were even debating…..

Originally Posted by Foudzing

If you do the same format but with B or minus you would have also a very limited set of good armies, basically only few B commons squads have a chance and Arrows Gruts seems way better than the rest in this format.

I disagree. I think there are roughly the same amount of high level armies to be found in a no restriction format than what can be found in a B or worse level format.*

Originally Posted by Foudzing

I find the meta way less interesting in B or minus format.

I don’t know your personal preference for what is interesting, but I think the competitive meta that can be found at the B level or lower is just as interesting and dynamic as what can be found above that line.* The absence of Raelin, deathreavers, and English speaking Wait then Fire alone is enough to drastically modify the meta and still be interesting.

Originally Posted by Foudzing

basically only few B commons squads have a chance and Arrows Gruts seems way better than the rest in this format.

I would like to see your list of which common squads have a chance in a normal double blind elimination tournament. Arrow Gruts are one of the top tier armies in the B format, but to say only a few B common squads have a chance in an all B format is wrong.

Originally Posted by Foudzing

I don't like the format which just straight up bans some figures. I would prefer a format where you have to take a certain amount of B or minus or with a multiplication factor.
F, D = x0
C- = x1
C = x2
C+ = x3
B- = x4
B = x5
B+ = x6
A- = x7
A = x8
A+ = x10

Originally Posted by Jexik

I've always been against bans based on these rankings, but if people have fun with it, I won't try to stop them.

To me, banning a combination of figures (general wars, Heroes only, by power ranking, or that complex power ranking-grade scale proposal of Foudzing’s) is the same concept as banning any figures. Heck even point values, starting zone, or figure limits are combination banning or limiting to a certain degree. To me it is all in the same vein. All those formats are somewhat arbitrary, it just depends on where you want to draw the line in the sand. I also understand that one of those lines in the sand for some people is something from the card (hero/squad, planet, height, general...) as opposed to something externally constructed like the power rankings, CUC, or delta.


*Note that I understand the figures used in a B or worse meta are a subset of the figures used in no restriction meta. However this is a discussion of the competitive armies in those meta, which is vastly different.

[MegaSilver]

Next week's Unit Debates will be Blades vs. Nagrubs.

[Foudzing]

Originally Posted by kevindola

I would like to see your list of which common squads have a chance in a normal double blind elimination tournament.

Who cares? Double blind doesn't exist anymore and that's exactly the reason why.

My point was B or less is almost as stupid as double blind.
B figures will be stronger than the rest and then some of them will be considered OP in this format just as if there were no bans at all.

The only point of this is to switch the meta a little, but once the B or less meta is figured out it'll be as boring as normal double-blind, if not more ( beause less figures available).

PLus the whole meta can be messed up by a simple miss-ranking, just for this fact I do not agree at all with these kinds of formats.

If the rankings where done by the whole community, why not, but as it's done by one man, it's a no-no for me.
Fot example if Jexik ranked my favorite figure B+ whereas most people consider it B, I am ****ed.
With my system every figure can be played, at the cost of big sacrifices sometimes, but if you absolutely want to play a certain figure, you can.
With the SZ and points limits you're banning some kinds of armies but you're not bannig an unit.

Starting zone is not banning, point is not banning, figure count is not banning.
Banning is banning.

[Jexik]

Another thing to consider is that the power rankings are made under the assumption that no units are banned.

As a hypothetical example, imagine that the only figures with special attacks were A- and above. Gorillinators would be a lot better in a B+ and below environment, right? But they're graded assuming that these units exist.

And Foudzing is right, I can definitely make mistakes, and that could result in a more easily 'solvable' tournament.

But again, if you and your participants are having fun, I really don't mind