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HoME Customs A place for Heroes of Middle Earth Customs |
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#49
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
Sorry all--had no internet connection the past couple of days, but I'm back and catching up on things tonight.
Re: Valhalla Generals or LoTR Generals One part of me says, "yeah LoTR is so awesome it deserves its own generals" but really, we're talking about a discontinued product here (Heroscape) and if we want these cards to see play beyond a dozen or so people on this planet of 7 billion people, we've got be as accessible to Heroscape players as possible. Unless Hasbro re-issues Heroscape we can expect a decline in population of players in the future--there are still lots of us, but we need all we can get. That means we need point costs fully compatible with Valhalla-scape; playtesting, theoryscaping, and rules compatibility with Valhalla-scape; and yes, probably following Valkyrie generals. Although not ideal thematically, I can stomach it and any sort of loose explanation as to why they're following them is fine. We're talking about a back story that already encompasses a huge diversity of characters. To say we're *that* special that we *must* have our own general...eh. Don't forget there are gameplay advantages to using existing generals. Why not make an independent game? Primarily the reason mentioned above(because that's the only way we can reasonably expect our cards to get used). That and if we invest the time to make it compatible, it is (comparatively) easy to later use those cards as a solid base for an independent system. Therefore those who want an independent game can still have it. Just reissue cards re-themed, tweaked, and re-costed. If we start with an independent system, you cannot just "tweak" such cards to mesh into Valhalla-scape. There are too many interactions with existing units that wouldn't have been considered in the original design. I would vote against this card re-issuance being an official part of this project, at least at this point. ERB? I've ignored caps' mentions of a possible ERB up to this point, both because my name was involved and because I was unconvinced that we needed it, but I have come around to his thinking. Yes, I think we would benefit from a small subset of members whom we trust to steer the project. Their decisions should be followed, but should only be made after consultation with the membership as a whole. And they have an interest in keep the members happy because if they don't there soon won't be any members. I'll leave some time for discussion pre-motion discussion, but on Wednesday, I intend to move for the creation of an ERB:
In conclusion I think a lot of what is tempting to discuss at this point in the project is 1) *good* to discuss for a bit, but 2) should be resolved quickly so it doesn't hold this up any further. A "good/reasonable" decision is better than a "perfect" decision. There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. --MLK |
#50
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
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I don't know how the C3G operates, but the C3V's ERB doesn't make any decision without more than ample discussion amongst themselves and the rest of the C3V membership. Although they're solely responsible for organizing waves and master-sets and I think they usually do that without a lot of feedback from the rest of the membership. It works very well. The ERB should be thought of as the folks that set the vision, direction, course, goals, etc. of the project. Last edited by caps; October 2nd, 2012 at 12:09 AM. Reason: I already know which three guys I'll be throwing my votes for. |
#51
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
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The Ring of Power, falls right into my hands...... |
#52
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
Hey, stop looking at infectedsloth that way--you're weirding him out!
There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. --MLK |
#53
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
Xorlof has some good points about why we should keep the standard generals. I think there are 3 main reasons:
1) People feel more comfortable mixing with classic Scape if the same generals are used. Therefore, if we use the classic generals, our customs are more likely to be used. 2) Any powers we make that reference generals would will only affect classic figures if we reference classic generals on our cards. 3) Some of the powers on army cards reference generals. Making new generals would mean that our figures are not affected by those powers. HoME Generals Rebuttal (Note: I haven't made up my mind yet about the generals, so I felt I needed more information. Here is what I found.) 1) I agree that we want our customs used, and it's probably true that they will get used more if they follow the classic generals. 2) We could always say: "any figures that follow Utgar, Valkrill, or Morgoth" on our cards if we really want to include classic generals in our abilities. 3) This is the list of abilities that reference generals (not including C3V): Dishonorable Attack Pistol Fire Special Attack Ullar Warlord Bonding Einar Warlord Bonding Evil Eye Protection Protection from Evil Aura Righteous Smite Jandar's Dispatch (flagbearer) Ullar's Amulet (flagbearer) Vydar's Range Enhancement Aura (flagbearer) Adjacent Tough (flagbearer) Red Flag of Fury Aura (flagbearer) Cover Fire (Agent Skahen promo) Targeting Beacon (affects Soulborgs only) Homing Device (affects Soulborgs only) Gift of Empress Aura (affects Kyrie only) Utgar's Orders (affects Kyrie only) A) First, I would ask why Protection from Evil Aura and Righteous Smite apply to Utgar but NOT to Valkrill? Is Valkrill NOT evil? In the same way, is Ullar not good? (his elves are not affected by Dishonorable Attack) Right away we see that the general specific powers already have some inconsistencies. B) Second, I don't think we'll have any HoME Kyrie or Soulborgs, so those powers would not affect our customs either. C) Third, most of the other general specific powers are flagbearer powers or promo figure powers. I don't know how many people actually have any of the flagbearers, but I know that I don't (not at the current prices). Summary Using classic Scape generals is really only a perception thing--people will use them more because they fit into the whole Scape universe. That is a valid reason, as Xorlof pointed out. On the other hand, having our own cool HoME card designs might draw people to use our cards as well. |
#54
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
Ana came out before Vakrill was even a General! So that doesn't count at all White Knight.
As to Ullar being good, he is actually neutral leaning toward good. (Jandar and Aquilla are the only ones "true" good, in the sense.) Thus, Dishonorable Attack should work on Aquilla too, but once again Isamu was created prior to Aquilla, so once again that doesn't count. |
#55
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
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So I think it's valid to say that if the originators of Scape felt it was OK to add new generals--even knowing that abilities such as Righteous Smite would not affect their figures--then it sets a precedence for us to do so as well. Not that we should, but it wouldn't necessarily make our figures incompatiable. |
#56
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
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EDIT: If I could persuade HoSS (and maybe even Project Pokemon, although I personally have no interest in Pokemon) to change their figures to follow Classic Generals, or at least have alternate cards that follow Classic Generals, I totally would. It would be very Heroscapey to see Sgt. Alexander fighting Storm Troopers alongside Aragorn, all following Classic Generals. Formerly known as capsocrates -- Remixed Master Sets - challenge yourself with new terrain combinations! -- Colorado Fall 2023 Multiplayer Madness -- caps's Customs Redux - caps's multiplayer maps - caps's maps - Seagate -- Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV Last edited by caps; October 2nd, 2012 at 11:16 AM. Reason: moved a sentence to a different point in a paragraph for clarity |
#57
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
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Formerly known as capsocrates -- Remixed Master Sets - challenge yourself with new terrain combinations! -- Colorado Fall 2023 Multiplayer Madness -- caps's Customs Redux - caps's multiplayer maps - caps's maps - Seagate -- Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV |
#58
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
Ah crap, White Knight. Here I had my mind all made up what I wanted to do and there you go giving me something to think about! Seriously though, very good research and very good points. I'm not convinced we need our own generals yet, but you've got good points, which I can address individually if you'd like (but I'm guessing you'd be able to guess my responses already).
One point I will make is that cool HoME card designs are not incompatible with using the current generals. That technically is a separate issue. We don't *have* to use the Utgar template for someone who follows Utgar (although without much reflection, I would say we ought to strongly consider it). And assuming no one wants us to make stats for the Basic game (*please, please, please let there be no one*), if we have enough art talent, I'd *love* to see a card with a miniature picture side using Hasbro card designs, and another side with our own design and movie-type photographs instead of the miniatures. On "our side" we could alias the generals into factions along the lines of what infectedsloth previously said. EDIT: capsocrates is a faster poster than me. I'll read his items to see if any of what he wrote changes what I wrote here. I suspect not. There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. --MLK Last edited by Xorlof; October 2nd, 2012 at 11:07 AM. Reason: gotta watch out for those NINJA's |
#59
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
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Formerly known as capsocrates -- Remixed Master Sets - challenge yourself with new terrain combinations! -- Colorado Fall 2023 Multiplayer Madness -- caps's Customs Redux - caps's multiplayer maps - caps's maps - Seagate -- Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV |
#60
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread
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If this is what you are saying then, yes, I agree. |
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