The Book of Midnighter

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by Ronin

It's something I think we have done a couple times, but best practice is avoiding it.

yea, anyhow.

Did some research. Predominantly, only superhuman folks can use superhuman counterattacks to counter specials.

However, there is the exception of Cassandra Cain. Both of her cards can counter specials. I would say that by comparison, with his enhancements, Midnighter would be even more capable of counters of those than Cassie. So, I am going to maintain the current proposal of including special attacks that is present in the SP. Midnighter's main ability is predicting moves and combat.

The power is set up so that it is clearly not him trying to throw Fireballs back at folks or anything, but instead more dodging the special attempt and nailing them in the face. Feel free to voice issue, as I recognize Cassie has hers locked to a d20, but there's also the difference that hers works at range.

Let the vote continue.

[Yodaking]

I'm generally against couterstriking SA's, that is one of the reasons why you draft someone with a SA. SA's are intended to bypass many defensive powers. I know not all SA's are the same, but often they roll fewer dice (that can't be boosted) and have wider effects like a fireball or something that is mechanically going to be more difficult to both avoid and return fire against, unlike a normal kick or punch.


On the point range discussion, I don't know much about him but Wolverine really is a hard core badass. The guy pretty much instantly heals any flesh wound, can't have his bones broken, has hundreds of years of combat experience to draw upon, his claws can cut through just about any protective material, and he flies into a berserk rage when a fight is not going his way. I feel most badasses can fall comfortably in the 200 (Conan/Kraven/Nightwing) - 250 (Spider-Man/Namor/Batman) range, 280-300 really is a top tier.

[LordVenoc]

If someone's got a reason for why "man with brain computer and enhancements that literally predict all possible outcomes of combat" should not be able to counter special attacks at melee, but "girl with nifty sixth sense about combat" should have a counter with range built in that affects SAs, please speak up. If your reason is simply, "Well as a general rule I don't like to," then while I respect your opinion, I'm gonna ask that you just nay vote me if that is a legit sticking point. This isn't a reflection of his martial arts alone. Its a reflection of actual superhuman ability.

As for the point range conversation, I'll say something similar. If you have a problem with 280, please actually voice that. I feel I keep getting responses questioning how high I put my point ceiling which keeps feeling like a conversation that goes:
"Is he that good?"
"Yes because this and this."
"...but are you sure he's that good?"
Which isn't productive when there seems to be happiness at 280, and there's 0 intent to try and up that number. If you question my point range, can we table that discussion till I actually try and take him to a point range you're uncomfortable with?

That said, I'm clearly letting the fact that sticking points are coming up on things he has clearly had for over a month get to me too much. I mean no anger toward anyone, and I'm gonna take a break and just let the vote happen at this point. If changes need to happen they need to happen, but I'm not changing the SP from what some have already approved at this point. If I don't get the votes and we have to tweak, so be it. Such is life.

[Tornado]

My best guess is Cass is extra special because she is Bat related and those type of designs are always top notch in C3G. Midnighter is not well known so speculation will lead to him not being as good as characters people love. I have dealt with this for a long time with 2000AD designs.
Try to stay positive if you can.

Nay to Public Testing until this is resolved.

[MrNobody]

I’ll continue to share my thoughts since I don’t have voting power. Yes, Cassie can counter SAs and her skill level is probably much lower than Midnighter’s. But she also a weird outlier in a whole history of characters that don’t counter SAs. It’s generally agreed that “because Punisher has it” isn’t a great argument for why a regular human should have 5 life, and I feel the same way here. There’s also the mechanical issue of “combo” SAs, like Amazon Warriors or AIM Agents. That being said, there is a lot of precedent for “predicting and dodging” characters to be able to use their abilities against SAs. (See Spidey and Batman) Also, as Ronin pointed out earlier, the ship has already sailed on having funky interactions with those combo attacks.

On point values, I think it makes far more sense to discuss that sort of thing now, instead of in the middle of playtesting, where changes made can possibly equal extra tests needed. He started out higher, and LV has pretty clearly stated his intentions to raise the point value up if needed. LV, while I do get that the conversation can go around in circles a bit, people like YK have made very valid points. Characters like Wolverine and Deadpool are really effective combatants with some crazy powers, and they don’t even go up to 300. Sabretooth at 290 seems to be the absolute upper limit of what I’d consider combatants that are highly enhanced/well-trained but still are essentially just humans. I know it’s probably a really subjective line to draw, but after that you get into guys like Black Tarantula and Gorgon where they have higher levels of power.

I definitely do think there’s a natural pull to question if a character is really that good if you don’t have experience with them. Like I said, there’s always that worry that fanboys will overinflate the importance of their favorites because they like them. (Not saying LV is doing that, but let’s face it; that’s a thing nerds like to do.) But basing point values off of importance or popularity is also a really bad idea.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

That said, I'm clearly letting the fact that sticking points are coming up on things he has clearly had for over a month get to me too much.

Yeah, I know that can be a bummer. It's a sometimes-frustrating reality of the design process that trying to move a design forward after letting it sit for a while, will get a bunch of fresh eyes on the design, and sometimes some new questions and concerns. I think you're doing a pretty good job navigating that, though!

The SAs thing isn't a sticking point for me, but I do have a preference for the counter not working against them - like Nobody says, Cass is kind of a weird outlier. I'd point to Deathstroke's Calculated Defense as the counter-counter-example of a power similar to Midnighter's that doesn't work against SAs: though it's quite different mechanically, the theme is similar, to the point where the power names are basically synonyms.

[johnny139]

Yeah, the SA thing is more of a... it causes mechanical wonkiness so we should try to avoid it. We don't always remember to, but we try to avoid it.

Like, Cyclops blasts Midnighter and a whole row of people with his Optic Blasts. Midnighter goes first, counter-strikes him, and kills Cyclops. Now... what do we do? Those other people might require clear sight or something for THEIR special powers to trigger, but Cyclops has already been destroyed. Weirdness ensues, so on, so forth.

The rules can handle these situations, but in the middle of a game you're not going to remember exactly how it plays out. So for ease of play in those corner cases, I'd advise against including special attacks. But, like Ronin, I'll leave it to the LD and my yea stands.

[LordVenoc]

Let's tackle some of these thoughts now that I've had a break...

Originally Posted by Tornado

Spoiler Alert!

My best guess is Cass is extra special because she is Bat related and those type of designs are always top notch in C3G. Midnighter is not well known so speculation will lead to him not being as good as characters people love. I have dealt with this for a long time with 2000AD designs.
Try to stay positive if you can.

Nay to Public Testing until this is resolved.

Thanks for the concrete feelings. It was feeling like everyone was just trying to nudge the design in particular directions rather than outright state issues. At this stage I personally feel the direct approach to issues with the design is crucial.

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Spoiler Alert!

I’ll continue to share my thoughts since I don’t have voting power. Yes, Cassie can counter SAs and her skill level is probably much lower than Midnighter’s. But she also a weird outlier in a whole history of characters that don’t counter SAs. It’s generally agreed that “because Punisher has it” isn’t a great argument for why a regular human should have 5 life, and I feel the same way here.

And I have tremendous gratitude for your continued sharing of thoughts. I don't think this is a "well Punisher has 5 life" case, because its not a both can do it kind of situation. It is a "One is distinctly better than the other, but the better one is being told he's not allowed to have this ability (which I feel the lack of dice increase and lack of range makes Cassie still have higher damage potential, thus a sidegrade).

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Spoiler Alert!

On point values, I think it makes far more sense to discuss that sort of thing now, instead of in the middle of playtesting, where changes made can possibly equal extra tests needed.

Except the discussion at hand is "Is 300 really a good ceiling?" No one has outright said 280 is too high. If this were the case, I'd agree.

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Spoiler Alert!

He started out higher, and LV has pretty clearly stated his intentions to raise the point value up if needed.

And this is where I get the feeling there's been a miscommunication. I never once said any intent to try and raise his points. The 270-300 range I mentioned was a passing comment with (what I thought was) no context alluding to actual intent to hit that ceiling.

I did however lay out steps I'd take if testing revealed him coming in any lower than 280. Upping defense and modifying rolls on first attack were intended as ways to bump him back to 280 if testing was making him seem lower.

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Spoiler Alert!

LV, while I do get that the conversation can go around in circles a bit, people like YK have made very valid points. Characters like Wolverine and Deadpool are really effective combatants with some crazy powers, and they don’t even go up to 300. Sabretooth at 290 seems to be the absolute upper limit of what I’d consider combatants that are highly enhanced/well-trained but still are essentially just humans. I know it’s probably a really subjective line to draw, but after that you get into guys like Black Tarantula and Gorgon where they have higher levels of power.

And I hope it isn't coming off that I'm just ignoring their opinions. What I was trying to convey is this: "I currently am more concerned with making sure he at least maintains the 280. If testing shows him coming higher, I will happily entertain this minor dispute over if the ceiling should be 290 or 300."

After more thought, I do think I could be swayed to the 290 ceiling, but also don't see why this just design guideline is such a huge deal right now. I'm not aiming to raise him, just having a passing thought of where I think would be reasonable for him to eventually land.

Midnighter is not just a human. He's extra resilient, has healing powers, superhuman reflexes, can lift multiple tons, and can literally foresee entire combats in milliseconds. But I think the Wolverine/Deathstroke comparisons have been accurate and have been quite happy with 280.

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Spoiler Alert!

I definitely do think there’s a natural pull to question if a character is really that good if you don’t have experience with them. Like I said, there’s always that worry that fanboys will overinflate the importance of their favorites because they like them. (Not saying LV is doing that, but let’s face it; that’s a thing nerds like to do.) But basing point values off of importance or popularity is also a really bad idea.

As above, I'm not looking to boost the design unless he starts coming in weaker than that 280. I definitely think he should be in this top-tier range, but he's by no means something like the primary powerhouse of Stormwatch (that falls much more to people like Apollo). Heck, him coming in at 280 means Apollo can land between the Supermen versions at 420 and the pair can make an even 700 together, which sounds great to me (or like another fight waiting to happen lol).

Originally Posted by Ronin

Spoiler Alert!

The SAs thing isn't a sticking point for me, but I do have a preference for the counter not working against them - like Nobody says, Cass is kind of a weird outlier. I'd point to Deathstroke's Calculated Defense as the counter-counter-example of a power similar to Midnighter's that doesn't work against SAs: though it's quite different mechanically, the theme is similar, to the point where the power names are basically synonyms.

I may be misreading the intent behind Deathstroke's then, as I always saw that as playing into his ability to study ahead and plan for his foes and make action in the moment. Midnighter is seeing millions of possible flows of combat before the first punch is thrown and is able to follow those paths to optimum success. Dude is also a great planner. You don't get the reputation as a Batman-rip-off and not be a good planner (there's also the basically secret agent thing, those guys don't tend to go in blind.

Clearly I need to rename the power then

Originally Posted by johnny139

Spoiler Alert!

Yeah, the SA thing is more of a... it causes mechanical wonkiness so we should try to avoid it. We don't always remember to, but we try to avoid it.

I think I just struggle to get past it when A) It is on both of Cassandra's cards (not complaining about consistenct) and B) This kind of thing is literally his super power.

[MrNobody]

Okay, I think I just misunderstood your intentions points-wise. I think only boosting him if he comes out under 280 seems fair, but I also personally think that if he comes in over 290 a slight nerf should probably be considered. But ultimately I think that's moot until some testing is done.

I'm happy with 280 and I'll second your statement that if anybody isn't happy with 280, please come out and say that directly. It really doesn't seem that anyone is against 280, there were just fears of that being the "floor" for him.

I still personally think the Punisher example applies; just because one or two designs have a weird fluke to them doesn't mean we should make more designs like that. I find the examples of Spider-Man and Batman much more convincing honestly, cause they're "major character" units that have gotten a lot more mechanical scrutiny. I guess ultimately what it comes down to for me is how badly we want to avoid the gameplay wonkiness that SA counters will inherently cause. But Batman I, one of the first C3G designs, is kind of wonky like that, so there's precedent both ways for sure.

From the Book of Batman I, if anybody is interested;

Q: What happens when the Zombies or Roman Archers or other squads with a combined special attack go after Batman, but Batman rolls for Evasive Strike?
A: Zombies can totally bypass the Evasive Strike with their special attack, because it is not just one figure attacking, it is all three.

[MrNobody]

I think he should also be priced just a bit higher (5-10 points maybe?) than he actually feels right now, because of his synergy with Apollo and the basically non-existent Operative class.

[Karat]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

I think he should also be priced just a bit higher (5-10 points maybe?) than he actually feels right now, because of his synergy with Apollo and the basically non-existent Operative class.

I mean you don't have to do that at all. The future units typically carry the brunt of that cost.

[Tornado]

The specific call out to a figure that does not exist gives me some hesitation but I think the best way to handle it is to to put Midnighter On Hold upon completion until Apollo is finished in case we need to tweak his cost.