Delta: latest updates and discussion

[Foudzing]

Well 110 points Marros seem a lot but thing is, they are better than Nakitas, and better than Syvarris, who are like the definition of balanced units.
I think 110 pts is nice, that said I think Krav should be more than 115points, in my opinion I would always take the Kravs over the Marro Warriors. Kravs bring more on the table in terms of machups imo. Modern maps definitely nerfed the Kravs but I still think they are a very good unit you can slap into any army just like MW and Raelin.

I don't understand how Arrow Gruts have the same price as Venoc Vipers.
Arrow Gruts have multiples tournaments wins in "bring 1" or 4x4 events, they are definitely a force to be reckoned with.
I don't think vipers ever won a single tournament, they are simply too weak and have simply too many horrible machups.

To me Vipers should be 35 or 40, or Venoc Warlord should be discounted.
Even if I think the delta meta is more soft towards Vipers (cause almost every 4 men squads are nerfed) I still think they are a weak squad overall, and not a strong squad like arrow gruts.

Originally Posted by caps

As for whether they are "real units," they are as real as VC units, if not more.

Except for the fact that they don't exist.
Like, even before we look at the card, the first criterias to check for the unit to even be considered in SoV/C3V are:
- has to be a pre-painted figure, which fits well with herocape aestetics
- figure has to be avalaible at a decent price for most people
So just because they are AH made they get an auto-pass on that?
What's the point to make customs for figures that don't exist? I really don't get it.

It's not the place to talk about that anyway.

[boromir96]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Well 110 points Marros seem a lot but thing is, they are better than Nakitas, and better than Syvarris, who are like the definition of balanced units.
I think 110 pts is nice, that said I think Krav should be more than 115points, in my opinion I would always take the Kravs over the Marro Warriors. Kravs bring more on the table in terms of machups imo. Modern maps definitely nerfed the Kravs but I still think they are a very good unit you can slap into any army just like MW and Raelin.

I don't understand how Arrow Gruts have the same price as Venoc Vipers.
Arrow Gruts have multiples tournaments wins in "bring 1" or 4x4 events, they are definitely a force to be reckoned with.
I don't think vipers ever won a single tournament, they are simply too weak and have simply too many horrible machups.

To me Vipers should be 35 or 40, or Venoc Warlord should be discounted.
Even if I think the delta meta is more soft towards Vipers (cause almost every 4 men squads are nerfed) I still think they are a weak squad overall, and not a strong squad like arrow gruts.

I think Krav are very comparable to MW in many armies. I have taken MW straight up over Krav in certain builds and vice versa. I think they both offer similar value in their ideal roles. Krav have had some decent results recently with WoA/Raelin, but nothing that makes me think they are underpriced currently. I don’t have a problem with them being slightly more than MW, but they should be very close IMO.


Straight up comparing the cost of Vipers and AGs is irrelevant. AGs are worthless without bonding heroes. Krug and Mimring both went up slightly, (Krug 5, Mimsy 15) but the big thing here is Raelin. I can’t recall ever seeing AGs doing wel in a bring one event without her, so her being +55 is a huge nerf to the AG army as a whole.

[Hijole]

Hi! I'm a long-time Heroscape player and lurker on this site but now I finally decided to write something. We've been using Delta points for about 6 months now with my friends and I feel it has really improved the game.

Our Heroscape collection isn't very large, we have all four master sets, Deathwalker 8000 and Sudema. We play 1vs1 and 3-way matches, always with draft. Thanks to Delta, Raelin and Marro Warriors aren't always picked and character like Erevan Sunshadow and Deathwalkers are actually used. But I have a couple of questions and thoughts about some points:

Grimnak: For us 150 points seems a bit overpriced. Since we don't have any orcs, his enhancement ability is useless. I've been thinking about reducing his points to 130. What do you think his value should be without the enhancement ability?

Mimring vs Spider-Man: I don't know if we just can't use Mimring well, but if I have to choose between 165 Mimring or 160 Spider-Man, it's always Spidey. Mimring just dies so easily. Personally I feel Spidey is a better character. He is smaller (usually in our game it's a good thing), has better defense and Spider-sense ability.

But in general I feel that Delta is the way this game is meant to be played. Thank you for your effort!

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by Hijole

Hi! I'm a long-time Heroscape player and lurker on this site but now I finally decided to write something. We've been using Delta points for about 6 months now with my friends and I feel it has really improved the game.

Glad to hear you're enjoying Delta.

Originally Posted by Hijole

Grimnak: For us 150 points seems a bit overpriced. Since we don't have any orcs, his enhancement ability is useless. I've been thinking about reducing his points to 130. What do you think his value should be without the enhancement ability?

Without a bonding squad, Grimnak is pretty trash, even at his original 120. Honestly, I have no idea what a 'balanced' point total for him is in a world without Blades or Heavies, but I think it's < 100 points. Obviously something that I've never tested (or thought about before) though.

For Grimnak, it's honestly more about his bonding squad protecting him (as a screen) than just him boosting them though. Grimnak without blockers dies pretty fast. Without a screen, Grimnak chomps 2-3 figures. With a good screen in the right matchup, Grimnak chomps 6-8 figures.

Originally Posted by Hijole

Mimring vs Spider-Man: I don't know if we just can't use Mimring well, but if I have to choose between 165 Mimring or 160 Spider-Man, it's always Spidey. Mimring just dies so easily. Personally I feel Spidey is a better character. He is smaller (usually in our game it's a good thing), has better defense and Spider-sense ability.

Based on your overall post, I'm guessing you don't have Arrow Gruts either? Without Arrow Gruts Mimring isn't gonna be good in delta, for sure. Again, a hero that really wants blockers to keep him alive.

My best suggestion is to proxy the figures you're missing (you can proxy Tarn for Blades/Heavies, for example, if you have a few squads of Tarn lying around) or Marro Drudge for Arrow Gruts, for example. That way you can get the maximum value out of those bonding heroes.

[Hijole]

I don't want to make Grimnak too cheap because in our games Marvel units are used quite often and Grimnak can chomp any one of them. If he costs 90 points it probably makes him too good pick against super heroes.

But using Marro Drudge as Arrow Gruts is a great idea! Two of my biggest problems, Mimring and Grimnak a lot better with one squad! Marro Drudge is used very rarely anyways. Thanks Chris!

[caps]

Originally Posted by Hijole

I don't want to make Grimnak too cheap because in our games Marvel units are used quite often and Grimnak can chomp any one of them. If he costs 90 points it probably makes him too good pick against super heroes.

But using Marro Drudge as Arrow Gruts is a great idea! Two of my biggest problems, Mimring and Grimnak a lot better with one squad! Marro Drudge is used very rarely anyways. Thanks Chris!

Note that Grimnak bonds with Blade Gruts and Heavy Gruts but not Arrow Gruts.

I'd also add that in my opinion Mimring is typically better when you use him as an 8 range sniper than when you go for big fire-line plays that leave him exposed.

[nyys]

Originally Posted by caps

I'd also add that in my opinion Mimring is typically better when you use him as an 8 range sniper than when you go for big fire-line plays that leave him exposed.

Agreed. As cool at Fireline is, it tends to be a 'nice to have' that can provide an epic moment, but can't be relied upon as part of the overall strategy. Not that it stops me from trying anyway.

[Shadowking]

Looking at building some Delta Spiders armies and am wondering about the worth of Sujoah VS Wyverns in them (assuming Classic only, so no Quahon available); Sujoah costs 70 more points than a single Wyvern (two Wyverns is only 20 points more than Sujoah) and has +2 life, +1 move, and Poison Sting Special Attack, losing out on Talon Grab and Venomous Sting. Poison Sting gives you access to a decent special attack, and Venomous Sting seems pretty meh, but Talon Grab is pretty handy on Wyverns and they aren't that much slower or less tanky - so is there ever a situation where you'd want to bring Sujoah at 160 VS two Wyverns at 180 (barring some specific point total issues)? There are match-ups where getting the bonding special attacker seems potentially helpful but my guess is that the two Wyverns (or one Wyvern with 70 left-over points for something else) is gonna be better in the majority of cases into most things?

[dok]

The February update to the Delta pricing system is here! It's another fairly hefty update with 42 cards getting changes.

You can view the spreadsheet HERE, and the the builder on heroscape.org is updated as well.

Here’s a summary of the changes, broken down into some categories:

Nerf... Twig

Spoiler Alert!

Quahon 225->230

Louis "Mad Dog" Malone 60->70
Kate Crawford 40->45

Not a ton here. Quahon remains good, and the VC law-persons were tending to outshine the classic cowboys in the new Clayton builds.

Faction Adjustments

Spoiler Alert!

Augamo 165->150
Avernus 135->125
Breach 140->130
Boreos 125->130
Greater Ice Elemental 110->100
Iron Golem 90->80
Talingul 100->115

Arktos 110->115
Manauvi 90->80
Varkaanan Darkclaws 120->115
Varkaanan Greyspears 125->130

Nottingham Brigand 25->20
Arthur of Sherwood 70->65
Cormin the Dark 60->50
Elaria the Pale 60->55
Locksley 130->110
Millerson 100->90

Talingul/Boreos is a very solid core in Delta VC, while some of the other pieces of that build seemed relatively overpriced. The ranged parts of the Vark build continue to be the engine of those builds, while some of the more overpriced melee components get a discount. The rogue faction gets a pretty across-the-board discount.

The Oops Files

Spoiler Alert!

Acolytes of Vorganund 55->50
Microcorp Troopers 95->90
Omegacron 185->180
Zettian Infantry 70->65

In three of four cases here, we're just returning the card to the original printed value. Microcorp Troopers remain at a higher point total than their original but are now a bit cheaper than the 10th regiment, who tend to outclass them.

Bargain Bin

Spoiler Alert!

Deepwyrm Drow 65->60
Templar Cavalry 80->75

Brimstone 145->140
Brunak 110->100
Count Raymond 90->80
Gurei-Oni 85->80 Delta VC, 85->75 Delta Classic
Kee-Mo-Shi 105->95
Kurrok the Elementalist 90->80
Major X17 80->75 classic only
Master of the Hunt 110->100
Mika Connour 85->75
Pelloth 60->40
Ranjit Singh 120->100
Sgt. Drake Alexander (RoTV) 100->90
Sonlen 140->130
Sujoah 160->145
Tul-Bak-Ra 110->90
Werewolf Lord 130->120

Just a set of figures that still seem relatively underplayed. Pelloth moves into a tie with Grok Riders as the most discounted card.

[caps]

I'm kind of surprised to see Kurroock going down. I take it the idea is that the Fire Elementals are already high-priced enough, and this allows other elemental builds more breathing room?

I'm glad to see the Deepwyrm Drow come down to 60, but it still seems too high to me.

I'm very happy about the Vark changes, particularly Manauvi coming down. He's always been one of my favorite Varkaanans.

[dok]

Originally Posted by caps

I'm kind of surprised to see Kurroock going down. I take it the idea is that the Fire Elementals are already high-priced enough, and this allows other elemental builds more breathing room?

With Fire and Water elementals both getting a bump to their price, we just haven't seen any successful Kurrok builds in Delta. We've seen a smattering of Air Elementals in Death Knight builds and that's all.

I'm sure Kurrok would be successful in a heroes-only format, but outside of that the boost seems needed.

Originally Posted by caps

I'm glad to see the Deepwyrm Drow come down to 60, but it still seems too high to me.

It's possible. We tend to be a bit more conservative with changes to commons since even a change of 5 points scales up when you get to full armies.

Originally Posted by caps

I'm very happy about the Vark changes, particularly Manauvi coming down. He's always been one of my favorite Varkaanans.

[ryguy266]

Are there any thoughts about bumping the Deathreavers up by 5-10 points? In the ongoing OHS season there are four armies with the rats, two of which have made it to the finals. The armies have also gone like 9-4 when using rats. Not unbeatable, but that's still very strong, especially considering the armies don't share any other units besides the Krav. No other non-filler unit appears that much except for the Marro warriors. Even Raelin RotV only shows up in three armies.
But Scytale's recent review of Nordlung is actually what got me thinking about the price increase. Ultimately, the "fun factor" partly led to a negative review. Scytale mentioned that a power "isn't fun or interesting for either player." This is exactly the Deathreavers. [insert rant on difference between "cheese" and "meta" here] I think the 'reavers used to be 70 in the older Delta project, but I don't know why they came down (genuinely, I can't find the post explaining the cost decrease). Punishing Deathreavers x3 with a 15 point increase might be something worth looking into.