The Book of Superman (Justice League)

[IAmBatman]

I want to start with a quick note since TB and Viegon are both expressing this concern:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Well I'm a little bit worried about total overlap on the classes. That means that Supes and Martian Manhunter will each add a marker for each other and themselves. At a high enough point cost, it will be easy to get +10-14 for Initiative and each of them getting max use of their powers. I thought the original plan was to have each JLA leader bring slightly different classes into the mix, with a few classes overlapping. That would've given some nice tension when army-building.

Right now Martian Manhunter and Superman both gather markers from Champions, Vigilantes, and Warriors. Martian Manhunter adds Officers. The cheapest Officer is 300 points.

Right now, if we went with exactly what's in the OP, what you're describing above (which I don't think would be hugely problematic, mind you) would already be possible at a minimum of 1,530 points (Superman, Martian Manhunter, Silk Spectre, Nite-Owl, Nomad, Echo, Ragman/Rorschach). If Superman's cost ends up coming down a bit, which is possible based on comments thus far, it could be a decent 1,500 point army. Would it be a broken or overpowered one? Not in my mind.

Would opening Superman up to getting markers from Officers change things at all? Not really. You'd replace a 140 point figure with a 300 point one, so your minimum for the army you're describing above would be 1,690 points. At 2,000 points you'd have a bit of flexibility.

Is the intent to make these guys impossible to play with each other? Ms. Marvel, Cap, and Wasp (II) all work off the same markers, give cross benefits, and are easy enough to fit in one army for significantly less than 2,000 points (only 750 for the three of them, compared to 900 for Supes and Martian Manhunter). So I'm not really seeing this as an issue in terms of overall power.

Now if the concern is more encouraging diversity of builds, I can agree. Which is why my preferred direction below departs from the JLA Trinity power a bit. Officers don't really need an ability to protect others anyway, since that's a core aspect of their powers as is.

I’m currently weighing a few different options for direction that would stay true to my goals and purposes for this design. So let’s talk about them and have a poll

1. His Stats/Man of Steel

Design Goals: To stay elegant, while thematically representative. It’s also imperative to give him something more to do than be a beat stick with 3-7 uses of his team leadership power. To that end, I’d very much prefer Heroic Rescue stay, and I don’t currently consider deleting it an option. Here are options I’d sooner consider:

Spoiler Alert!

A. Four Power Card, Defense 7
This one’s pretty simple. Just add Man of Steel onto what we have already, then lower his defense to 7.

B. Four Power Card, Defense 7, Life 7
In terms of keeping his power-level down, this is the same as A, but slightly depowered to be on the level of Superman (I) (who is still a defensive beast!)

C. No Man of Steel, Defense 8, Life 8

Having a Life and Defense of 8 is actually less brutal than having a Life of 8, Defense of 7, and Man of Steel, in my experience. Yes it’s not a place I’m super keen on going in terms of power level, but since it’s iconic for Superman to be up there in terms of power, and this approach is actually less powerful than Life 8, Defense 7, and Man of Steel, I’m OK with it.

D. No Man of Steel, Defense 7, Life 8

This is like the above, but with the concerns about 8 Defense gone, and depowered to 7 Defense. I’m fine with this as 7 Defense and 8 Life is plenty of staying power and this would also help keep his cost down.

E. No Man of Steel, Defense 8, Life 7

This is much like C, except his Life is lowered by one to help offset the huge defense. Not my favorite option.

F. No Man of Steel, Defense 7, Life 7

This would depower him quite a bit, but help keep his cost down, and still keep him solid enough to be representative of the character.

2. His First Power (marker placement)

Design Goals: The marker creation power needs to either have enough markers to be worthwhile in the game, like Martian Manhunter’s 7 (6 would also work) or it needs to have effects that are really worthwhile. Since the marker placement and their usage takes up the majority of the power space on the card, they need to be worth having. Three markers with the currently projected burn effects is not worthwhile and I can’t see taking that direction. Here are four directions I could see taking.

Spoiler Alert!

A. JLA TRINITY
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Champion, Warrior, or Vigilante Hero you control, to a maximum of 3.

This would need to be paired with very, very strong marker burn powers that last entire rounds or even for the game.

B. JLA TRINITY
At the start of the game, place 2 Justice League markers on this card for each Unique Champion, Warrior, or Vigilante Hero you control, to a maximum of 6.

This would allow Superman to do his full Trinity trick with only Superman and Wonder Woman, while still allowing him to work in larger armies. By giving him 2 for each person he teams with, but setting the max at 6, you have enough markers to work with, but teammates after the first two are redundant.

C. ALL-STAR TEAM UP or SUPER FRIENDS
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Champion, King, Scientist, or Vigilante Hero you control, to a maximum of 7.

This would do the most to encourage different army builds. Champion and Vigilante are still there, to encourage team ups with Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Batman, but you also bring in Aquaman and a bunch of thematic Scientists, while not reinforcing the use of Officers. This is my preferred direction.

D. JUSTICE LEAGUE
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Champion, Officer, Warrior, or Vigilante Hero you control, to a maximum of 7.

This would be a reuse of Justice League, which I don’t think would be problematic in terms of game balance. I don’t love it, because Officers don’t really benefit from the default, defensive approach to the powers (they can already help protect allies adjacent to them) and it doesn’t encourage different builds at all (though neither does the first nor second option here). But it gives a max of 7 markers in a way that is thematically pleasing to folks, which helps make the mechanics worthwhile.

I’m going to hold off on discussing what to do with his burn power until we settle on the above. Please all Heroes (@johnny139 @Karat @Viegon @SirGalahad @TrollBrute ), Sidekicks, and anyone else interested participate in this poll.

[johnny139]

For the first poll, I have no strong opinion. Whatever works best mechanically is fine by me, and I'll leave that discussion to others.

For the second, I'd be strongly in favor of A. I don't see Superman as a major strategic player and find the theme of the Trinity with three markers and big effects to fit the bill in both theme and mechanical diversity.

[Dysole]

Mild preferences for both C options/initial OP text.

~Dysole, who thinks no option is unviable from a competitive standpoint

[Yodaking]

The really like the theme behind the Trinity granting just 3 markers with the other two classes being the ones Batman & Wonder Woman have. I'd rather see the defense switch idea scrapped and we come up with a different marker burn power that would be significant enough that having just 3 markers makes sense from a balance perspective. The current marker burn power feels too much like what Superman I already does to me and I'd prefer to mine some new ground. That is why I really like the Heroic Rescue power on this card, it is something new for a C3G Superman card.

As for the classes overlap, Batman III could always have a class other then Vigilante or since WWII was drafted by a hero we could also give her a class other then Warrior when she gets done. Then if you want to play the old cards for those characters you can still draft them with MMII and their classes give him a marker, but if you want to play the new cards you can play them with Supes III for the marker.

[japes]

Not sure on the first poll yet but for the second one I think A with a BIG effect for using the marker sounds right.

Of course full disclosure of all the JL redesigns this was the one I thought was least needed but the Heroic Rescue power is PERFECT...that's Superman.

One comment about the number of Markers is that if you are going with an option that has more markers then you'd need a penalty for using it so there was tension there...You need some kind of bonus for having the marker that you lose when you start using them up. Right now with nothing like that having a power with 7 markers would make you want to burn them up whenever you can because there is no reason to hold onto them.

For example (not intended to be serious just a way to get my point across in case anyone needs it) If they represented some sort of inspired/fatigue mechanic and Superman added to his defense for each marker then you'd have to think hard on whether you wanted to fatigue/weaken him)

[Yodaking]

Japes makes a good point. Perhaps if the initiative bonus idea is left on this card it should only be based on the number of markers on this card but then have it +2 per marker. Then if you cap the markers at 3, you cap the initiative bonus at +6 with it going down 2 points each time you burn a marker. The question then becomes, how much do you want to go first next round vs should I burn that marker.

[Arkham]

I agree with your assessment on MoS vs. no MoS in terms of power level. 8/8 is certainly less powerful than 8/7 with MoS.

I see this Superman as being the Superman that focuses on his Leadership, Indomitable Will, Saving, Rescuing, Protecting etc. We need the boy scout leader here, because that's usually what he is for the Justice League. He is the Justice, and the symbol of hope. The bright light for the team. So the more of that expressed in this design, the better. More so than the pure survivability and power.

As for the group dynamic, we have Martian Manhunter providing support in terms of mental/telepathy. Batman is providing support in terms of tactical and strategy. Cyborg in terms of movement and technology.

What feels best for Superman? To me it is Leadership, Will, and Protecting. Heroic Rescue is perfect for this, and that's also why I liked the defensive special. However, perhaps we make his marker power something more pronounced?

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Japes makes a good point. Perhaps if the initiative bonus idea is left on this card it should only be based on the number of markers on this card but then have it +2 per marker. Then if you cap the markers at 3, you cap the initiative bonus at +6 with it going down 2 points each time you burn a marker. The question then becomes, how much do you want to go first next round vs should I burn that marker.

I think Japes was implying that if there's only 3 markers, the effect they have needs to be big. If it is more markers, such as 5-7, then the markers need a drawback. I don't think having such a drawback and only 3 markers would be ideal.

[Arkham]

Here's a possible replacement power that I feel would get great use of the 3 markers:

A SYMBOL OF HOPE
Unique figures you control within clear sight of Superman add 1 to their defense. Once per turn, after any attack dice, defense dice, or the 20-sided die is rolled for a figure you control within clear sight of Superman, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card and re-roll any dice.

If that's not enough, you could add on:

A SYMBOL OF HOPE
Unique figures you control within clear sight of Superman add 1 to their defense. Once per turn, after any attack dice, defense dice, or the 20-sided die is rolled for a figure you control within clear sight of Superman, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card and re-roll any dice. At the end of the round, you may place a Justice League marker on this card. You may never place more Justice League markers on this card than were on this card at the start of the game.

Which would make:

LIFE = 8
MOVE = 10
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 8
DEFENSE = 8

POINTS = 430

JLA TRINITY
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Champion, Warrior, or Vigilante Hero you control, to a maximum of 3.

A SYMBOL OF HOPE
Unique figures you control within clear sight of Superman add 1 to their defense. Once per turn, after any attack dice, defense dice, or the 20-sided die is rolled for a figure you control within clear sight of Superman, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card and re-roll any dice. At the end of the round, you may place a Justice League marker on this card. You may never place more Justice League markers on this card than were on this card at the start of the game.

HEROIC RESCUE
After moving Superman, you may place up to one engaged friendly figure Superman passed over this turn on any empty space adjacent to Superman. A friendly figure moved by Heroic Rescue will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

[IAmBatman]

Martian Manhunter has 7 markers and no drawback.

[Dysole]

There might be some problems with a static clear sight boost but I'm not 100% certain. Otherwise, I like the power fine.

~Dysole, noting that Probability Manipulator is powerful and has a lesser effect but is also unlimited so keep that in mind

[IAmBatman]

I plan to let the poll run its course before worrying too much about the burn power.