Project Pokemon Design Thread: VENUSAUR!

[wulfhunter667]

Originally Posted by mac122

IMO, Pikachu needs Climb. Even if his Size changed to 3, there will be many maps that will trap Pikachu. To me, that doesn't fit the character. It reduces his mobility too much. He's definitely more spry than Charmander.

If we delete Double Team, Pikachu's base defense will have to go up (see Charmander). Double Team allows for Pikachu to have a lower defense if he gets cornered, but makes him harder to hit at range - it's not that he's tougher at range, just quick and hard to hit. I'd have to test him out, but it could be that his base can go to 2 and it would become Double Team 2, instead.

I think base defense at 2 and DT at 2 is a mistake. Leave the base as is and drop DT to 2. That way he maintains good defensive value from ranged.
IMHO, as long as what the figure is supposed to get fits on the card, does not go crazy with the abilities trying to give the card everything, and, most impostantly, is thematic, there is no reason a designer cannot have 4 abilities for a card. It's up to the creator to make the final call on that and I think Mac's Pikachu is going in the right direction.
I agree with keeping Climb, but let me go on record here about Climb in general. [rant] I strongly feel like we should be very careful when assigning it in the future. Several of you wanted Charmander to have it, but I left it off on purpose. Although I wasn't happy about altering his size to 3, I'd rather he was taller than he is supposed to be than have been given an ability he simply does not need.
[/rant]
Finally, since Pikachu has been to playtest once already, as soon as you get him 'finalized' again, go ahead and post him back to the Playtest thread. We can do two playtests at once.
That's all for now. Back to class.

[mac122]

Adjusted Double Team

Pikachu v2.5c
Life: 4
Move: 6
Range: 1
Attack: 2
Defense: 3
Points: 90-100

Agility(?)
This Pikachu may move 3 additional spaces and attack once at any time before, during or after its move. This Pikachu is never attacked when leaving an engagement.

Thundershock Special Attack
(Electric) Range 5. Attack 3.
When this Pikachu attacks with Thundershock Special Attack, it may attack one additional time. This Pikachu may target the same or different figure with each attack.

Double Team 2
When this Pikachu rolls defense dice against an attacking figure who is not adjacent, add 2 defense dice to this Pikachu.

Climb X3
When moving up or down levels of terrain, this Pikachu may triple its Height.

[Carakki]

Originally Posted by mac122

Pikachu v2.5b
Life: 4
Move: 6
Range: 1
Attack: 2
Defense: 3
Points: 90-100

Agility(?)
This Pikachu may move 3 additional spaces and attack once at any time before, during or after its move. This Pikachu is never attacked when leaving an engagement.

Thundershock Special Attack
(Electric) Range 5. Attack 3.
When this Pikachu attacks with Thundershock Special Attack, it may attack one additional time. This Pikachu may target the same or different figure with each attack.

Double Team 3
When this Pikachu rolls defense dice against an attacking figure who is not adjacent, add 3 defense dice to this Pikachu.

Climb X3
When moving up or down levels of terrain, this Pikachu may triple its Height.

Just to clarify, Pikachu can still attack with Thundershock while using Agility, but it can only be done once? Or is Thundershock negated entirely because it allows two attacks?

Upon further reflection, disallowing Thundershock may be the way to go. It would prevent the infinite run-and-gun someone mentioned earlier and still keep in the high-speed spirit of the move. We could even change its name back to Quick Attack (as a special ability instead of an attack, though). Something like this...

QUICK ATTACK
Instead of moving normally, this Pikachu may move 3 additional spaces and attack once normally at any time before, during or after its move. This Pikachu is never attacked when leaving an engagement while using Quick Attack.

Thoughts?

[fiddlerjones]

I'm torn between dropping Pikachu's defense to 2 (with DT at 2) or leaving it at its base (with DT at 2). Only playtesting will tell.

I really do like Pikachu in the role of harrying ranged attacker and support a Quick Attack that will complement his Thundershock properly (most like the +2 move and disengage variety). I think he's going in the right direction, however, we need to make sure he doesn't get stronger than about 100 points, IMO.

[counter-rant]
As far as climb goes, I agree with Wulf that we need to assign it judiciously. However, I don't know why we're so stuck on this idea that the pokemon's size in feet needs to be its Heroscape size. There are very few units in HS smaller than 3 or larger than 8, while there are many pokemon outside of that range. Most small pokemon, like the starters and Pikachu, should be Size 3. I can understand making a very few pokemon smaller, like Rattata (with Climb) or Pidgey (with flight), but that should be the exception, not the rule. Likewise, Onix is not going to be Huge 28. Huge 8 or Huge 9 is probably sufficient. We don't need to feel confined by the Pokedex entry sizes from the game when sizing pokemon in Heroscape.[/counter-rant]

[Xn F M]

I'm still not a fan of having the option of a double attack or a run-and-gun. But with the change to Double Team, Pikachu is looking more like a 90-100 point unit (though he still looks a little more powerful than he should be to me).

[mac122]

Originally Posted by fiddlerjones

I'm torn between dropping Pikachu's defense to 2 (with DT at 2) or leaving it at its base (with DT at 2). Only playtesting will tell.

I really do like Pikachu in the role of harrying ranged attacker and support a Quick Attack that will complement his Thundershock properly (most like the +2 move and disengage variety). I think he's going in the right direction, however, we need to make sure he doesn't get stronger than about 100 points, IMO.

[counter-rant]
As far as climb goes, I agree with Wulf that we need to assign it judiciously. However, I don't know why we're so stuck on this idea that the pokemon's size in feet needs to be its Heroscape size. There are very few units in HS smaller than 3 or larger than 8, while there are many pokemon outside of that range. Most small pokemon, like the starters and Pikachu, should be Size 3. I can understand making a very few pokemon smaller, like Rattata (with Climb) or Pidgey (with flight), but that should be the exception, not the rule. Likewise, Onix is not going to be Huge 28. Huge 8 or Huge 9 is probably sufficient. We don't need to feel confined by the Pokedex entry sizes from the game when sizing pokemon in Heroscape.[/counter-rant]

I agree that Pikachu should probably end up right around 90-100 points. This would let Raichu be in the 140-160 range and eventually Pichu in the 40-60 range.

I agree, we don't have to be confined by the pokedex entry for Pokemon size, we do need to make adjustments for HS. However, we don't have to be confined by the other figures in HS, either. Yeah, Onix doesn't need to be a 28, but he certainly could be 12-14 and not be ridiculous.
For Pikachu's size, I'd go along with Size 3 if that's the consensus, but then he still needs Climb X2 to be maneuverable.

[Warlord Alpha]

Originally Posted by mac122

For Pikachu's size, I'd go along with Size 3 if that's the consensus, but then he still needs Climb X2 to be maneuverable.

That's fine with me. I honestly don't see the big deal with giving small figures a climb bonus. Yeah, it may seem *slightly* unthematic, but at the same time this is Pokemon meets Heroscape, and those climbing rules would really screw Pikachu over without Climb X2.

[NightSwipe]

Originally Posted by Warlord Alpha

That's fine with me. I honestly don't see the big deal with giving small figures a climb bonus. Yeah, it may seem *slightly* unthematic, but at the same time this is Pokemon meets Heroscape, and those climbing rules would really screw Pikachu over without Climb X2.

I agree, it definitely needs Climb x2, and I think that the base defense should remain constant at 3 while the DT is reduced to 2.

[White Knight]

Originally Posted by mac122

Adjusted Double Team
Pikachu v2.5c

Agility(?)
This Pikachu may move 3 additional spaces and attack once at any time before, during or after its move. This Pikachu is never attacked when leaving an engagement.

The way Agility is written, it seems like Agility (with a single attack) just replaces the move. But Pikachu can then attack normally afterwards. (Because in Heroscape you move and then attack. Agility just increases your move and lets you move during it.)

I know that's not what was intended. Maybe a little wordsmithing to say that Agility replaces a normal move and attack.

[minimoose38]

Ugh, speaking of unthematic abilities for small figures to prevent movement issues, think how hard it will be to justify Climb for a thing like Goldeen or Magikarp. For Pikachu though, Climb does make sense. He does ride around on Ash's shoulder/head pretty much all the time.

[Xn F M]

Originally Posted by White Knight

The way Agility is written, it seems like Agility (with a single attack) just replaces the move. But Pikachu can then attack normally afterwards. (Because in Heroscape you move and then attack. Agility just increases your move and lets you move during it.)

I know that's not what was intended. Maybe a little wordsmithing to say that Agility replaces a normal move and attack.

Done.

Edit: Actually, that seems a bit wonkey witout a set move value.

Double done

[mac122]

"This Pikachu may move 3 additional spaces and may split its move before, during, or after its attack this turn. This Pikachu is never attacked when leaving an engagement."
I think this addresses the extra attack concern, but I believe now it would allow for Pikachu to attack twice with Thundershock.