Competitive Unit Congress

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Originally Posted by DrLivingston

Well I have played against Jotun in a tournament exactly once.

It was a draft tournament.

I am positive my opponent would never draft Jotun again.

I remember someone bringing Jotun to a local tournament one other time. He lost horribly all day and then sold his entire collection for $50 after the event.*

I have brought Cyprien to a tournament and seen others bring him many times. I don't think Cyprien and Jotun are a fair comparison at all.

I thought the point was to make the units into things people would pick to bring to a competitive tournament.

If folks think Jotun is a viable pick in a competitive tournament, they'll vote against this proposal, and it will fail.

But adding Jotun is what I am proposing.

Gen Con Unique Hero 2009
Jotun - 225
WSG - 360
Krug - 480
Marcu - 500

5-0 (1st place)
wins against miminoose38, Retlaw, Mr. Migraine, Mecha's kid, Bunjee


Gen Con 2010 Heroes Only
Jotun - 225
Krug - 345
Shurrak - 505
Marcu - 525
Chain fighter - 550

5-0 (1st place)
wins against Brownsfan, dok, Lord Trask, Wookie, Arcus


Overall tournament record with Jotun = 10-0. By far my best with any single unit.

~Matthias who is just adding fuel to the fire

[lefton4ya]

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

Jotun is non-viable in touneys except 500+ point hero only ones. He either needs a lot less cost, multiple attacks more than adjacent, or some kind of bonding. and any one of those changes seems wrong to me. The only thing I can think of is make wild swing have range of two like hydra reach.

Jotun shines (A to A+) in heroes only events, is sub-par (C to B-) in anything else. I am fine with either not changing him and so he will be used as is, or CUCing him better at squadscpae, but it would be hard pressed to make a change that both doesn't break theme OR make him even more powerful in heroes only tourneys.

[killercactus]

Jotun is bad against squads.

Q9, Raelin, Sir Gilbert, Grimnak, Kaemon Awa, Fen Hydras, etc. are not squads.

His only problem is that the Hydra and Krug probably do his job almost as well for nearly half the cost, but I think he can have a place especially as the points go over 500.

I'd like to see a tournament where Saylind summons him on OM#3 adjacent to Q9 or something. Also, don't forget how strong he can be against bonding heroes on a lava map.

[Rÿchean]

Originally Posted by DrLivingston

Well I have played against Jotun in a tournament exactly once.

It was a draft tournament.

I am positive my opponent would never draft Jotun again.

I remember someone bringing Jotun to a local tournament one other time. He lost horribly all day and then sold his entire collection for $50 after the event.*

I have brought Cyprien to a tournament and seen others bring him many times. I don't think Cyprien and Jotun are a fair comparison at all.

I thought the point was to make the units into things people would pick to bring to a competitive tournament.

If folks think Jotun is a viable pick in a competitive tournament, they'll vote against this proposal, and it will fail.

But adding Jotun is what I am proposing.

You mad bro?

[Devil's Advocate]

As has been said, other than the rare Hero only type events, Jotun is not very viable. I would suspect that Morsbane has more Tournament wins than Jotun in a regular format.

There is almost no reason to use Jotun over Hydra + 100 Points or Krug + 100 Points. Yeah Jotun can provide a Special Attack but the Hydra or Krug user can use those extra 100 points towards either a Special Attacker or ranged support.


Jotun with an auto shield vs squads would be interesting. With an auto shield + 4 Defense he might actually have a chance to last for a bit before dying yet wouldn't make him stronger in all Hero if anyone is concerned about that.

[fomox]

I love Jotun, and he is fantastic in heroes-only. But I don't think he's very viable in the 'typical' tournament format. (I don't think typical means best. I think Heroscape is most fun when you vary the ways that you play.) If CUC is mostly worried about the typical tournament format, I'd agree he needs some tweaks to be viable.

I might suggest something like:

When attacked by small or medium common squads, Jotun may roll any defense dice that are not shields one additional time.

That would leave him unchanged in the heroes-only situations, but have a bit more survivability against the power squads.

--

In any case, I find these CUC discussions to be fun things to think about. Certainly not anything worth being upset over. Just some good people talking about a great game.

[fomox]

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

Acolarh
Proposal: Increase Defense to 3. Change LEAF OF THE HOME TREE AURA to be "...you may roll 12 Ullar Valkyrie Dice..."

I'm a huge Acolarh fan. He's not very good, but he owns Matthias, so what's not to like?

Some statistics on increasing the Home Tree Aura, for those into that sort of thing:

Chance of at least 3 symbols
10 dice: 22.48%
11 dice: 27.32%
12 dice: 32.26%

For an attack of 3 on 3 defense (WoA or Aubrien on height):
Chance of death
No aura: 51%
10 dice: 39.5%
11 dice: 37.1%
12 dice: 34.5%

The regular 10-dice aura is basically like defense+1 in this comparison, and the proposed 12-dice aura is not quite as good as defense+2. (If you add Raelin, too, the %s change, but the +1defense and +2 defense is still the same story.)

[DrLivingston]

Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus

Gen Con Unique Hero 2009
Jotun - 225
WSG - 360
Krug - 480
Marcu - 500

5-0 (1st place)
wins against miminoose38, Retlaw, Mr. Migraine, Mecha's kid, Bunjee


Gen Con 2010 Heroes Only
Jotun - 225
Krug - 345
Shurrak - 505
Marcu - 525
Chain fighter - 550

5-0 (1st place)
wins against Brownsfan, dok, Lord Trask, Wookie, Arcus


Overall tournament record with Jotun = 10-0. By far my best with any single unit.

~Matthias who is just adding fuel to the fire

This doesn't bode well for me adding the Knights to the non-viable list...

[lefton4ya]

While we are at it we should add Raelin and Major Q9. They don't bond with anything!

But seriouly we should add them. Make Raelin cost more, say 115 and Q9 cost more or have less defense, say 6. Or would changing Raelin and Q9 be an abomination that causes desertion of the CUC?

Also, the real reason I upped Acolarh's ullar dice to 12 was just to use them all, although it does slightly increate odds. Maybe the aura can be enlarged too, as I have always played using 12 dice and he still sucks (although I never played him with higher defense)

Also, can you add my PDF to the front page? Or would you rather take out my self-advertised customs out of it first?

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

OK, so I combined all the CUC passed and proposed changes and posted a CUC download at 3/page. I also took the liberty of making my own suggestions and adding them as well. Take them or leave them, but I was just too impatient to wait for you guys at one change a month or so.

[rym]

Is there any chance of adding Kee-Mo-Shi to the non-viable list? She's a figure I really, really enjoy and would love to see benefit from a CUC change to make her more tournament-worthy.

I'm not sure what change(s) that would be - maybe making her a Warlord, though there has to be something more creative than that - but I would love playtesting her to make her more tournament-worthy.

And I know I've asked about her before, and yes, she does have a niche, but so do most of the figures on this list really, and she needs a chance to shine outside of that small niche.

Thanks for the consideration.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by rym

Is there any chance of adding Kee-Mo-Shi to the non-viable list? She's a figure I really, really enjoy and would love to see benefit from a CUC change to make her more tournament-worthy.

I'm not sure what change(s) that would be - maybe making her a Warlord, though there has to be something more creative than that - but I would love playtesting her to make her more tournament-worthy.

And I know I've asked about her before, and yes, she does have a niche, but so do most of the figures on this list really, and she needs a chance to shine outside of that small niche.

Thanks for the consideration.

Yeah, we've talked about Kee-Mo-Shi. I definitely think she qualifies as "non-viable" (I can't say that I've ever seen her at an event). Making her a "warlord" is a given (IMO) and would be huge in making her more viable. After that, she might just need a small tweak in points and she would likely be good to go.

[lefton4ya]

Instead of making KMS a warlord, Grok riders could be revised to bond with warlord or warwitch (among other improvements) but that would make them a pair instead of opening up KMS to more builds.