The Book of Black Bat

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I really think you should reconsider her at Attack 5. Cassandra Cain is probably the single best female fighter in the DCU. She has bested Batman, Lady Shiva, and countless others. She would wipe the floor with Black Canary and she has 5 Attack with Fists of Fury.

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

I really think you should reconsider her at Attack 5. Cassandra Cain is probably the single best female fighter in the DCU. She has bested Batman, Lady Shiva, and countless others. She would wipe the floor with Black Canary and she has 5 Attack with Fists of Fury.

Hmm... so, you think it'd be reasonable for her to come in at 200 or so? I've been pushing to keep her under that for thematic reasons, but if you think that'd actually be more thematic...

Maybe bump her attack back up to 5 but leave DP at 11?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Originally Posted by Viegon

Hmm... so, you think it'd be reasonable for her to come in at 200 or so? I've been pushing to keep her under that for thematic reasons, but if you think that'd actually be more thematic...

Maybe bump her attack back up to 5 but leave DP at 11?

Well, to be honest, I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Her powers should cover the character and the cost should be what it is. I think her costing the same as Batman I is pretty on target as she is one of the few who have fought him and injured him (legitimately). Plus it still leaves Batman II to outclass her. I think the raising of the Defense Premonition makes sense too (from her batgirl design) as she is more prone to sacrifice herself now (whether for the counter-attack or to protect an innocent.) Very thematic, IMO.

[TrollBrute]

Is Cass really that much better than Black Canary? Most lists also put Black Canary as one of the top fighters in the DCU. Cass is also certainly not better than Bruce, even if she's close.

[johnny139]

To be fair I think that our Black Canary (like a lot of our early units) is on the low end for the character. I think I'd be comfortable with a Canary in the low-200s. There's some overlap between her and Batman, power-level-wise, from my point of view.

I figured Cass would be beneath both of them but if she's Canary tier than I have no problem with her pushing up toward 200.

[Viegon]

Alright, BamBam just signed up, so I'm going to send the design to him at 5 attack, DP 11, and 200 points, and see what he thinks.

[Viegon]

BamBam's games at 5 attack, DP11, and 200 points:

Originally Posted by b57123m

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Black Bat

Army Test
Map: Fulcrum
Units:
Point Total: 710
Army 1
Black Bat with Bat Grapple (200), Green Arrow (130), Tempest (210), Speedy (80), Speedy (90)
Army 2
Ventriloquist (90), Killer Croc (200), Bane (190), Mister Zsasz (100), Harley Quinn (130)

The good guys underperformed, I had a decent set-up with Tempest blocking the height and Black Bat mopping the floor of the baddies held up in the water. Unfortunately, Black Bat never successfully rolled for Defensive Premonition and couldn’t live long enough to damage the rest of the baddies. I will say that it was super unexpected and awesome for Black Bat to destroy Killer Croc in one crazy attack.

HIGHLIGHTS

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1
Killer Croc water tunnels close to Black Bat
Tempest places a water tile, blocking the non-fliers from entering the high point.
Ventriloquist advances forward
Tempest takes height and places another blocking water tile
Insane Mister Zsasz moves forward bringing Harley Quinn with him
Prepare yourself for this one.
Black Bat rolls 3 skulls, puts 1 wound on Killer Croc (4), Fists of Fury activates
Black Bat rolls 4 skulls, puts 2 wounds on Killer Croc (2), Fists of Fury activates
Black Bat rolls 5 skulls, puts 1 wound on Killer Croc (1), Fists of Fury activates
Black Bat kills Killer Croc (0)

Round 2
Tempest completely blocks entry to the height of the map from the opposing team
Bane advances forward
Black Bat Bat-Grapples over the water
Ventriloquist puts 2 wounds on Black Bat (2), no Defensive Premonition
Black Bat puts 2 wounds on Ventriloquist (2), no Fists of Fury
Mister Zsasz destroys Black Bat (0), no Defensive Premonition
Zsasz’ Kill Count activate
Zsasz wounds Tempest (3)
Harley Insane Bonding activates and she Smilex Bombs the 3 archers in the start zone.
3 wounds on Green Arrow (1)
3 wounds on Speedy (Mia) (1)
Destroys Speedy (Roy) (0)

Round 3
Tempest wounds Harley Quinn using his Mystical Tempest power (3)
Ventriloquist uses Scarface’s Tommy Gun on the Archers
2 wounds on Green Arrow (0)
1 wound on Speedy (Mia) (0)

Round 4
Zsasz wounds Tempest (2)
Zsasz wounds Tempest (1)
Bane rolls a 19 and attacks Tempest with 9 attacks, Tempest rolls perfect and blocks the 5 skulls
Tempest puts 3 wounds on Zsasz
Tempest destroys Zsasz (0)

Round 5
Bane rolls a 20 for Venom Injection and destroys Tempest with 5 wounds (0)

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Bane (6), Harley Quinn (3), Ventriloquist (4)

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Fulcrum
Units:
Point Total: 800
Army 1
Black Bat with Bat Grapple (200), Tempest (210), Spoiler (50), Commissioner Gordon (90), Jason Todd – Robin (70), Tim Drake – Robin (120), Damian Wayne – Robin (80)
Army 2
Wrecker (230), Thunderball (190), Piledriver (190), Bulldozer (190)

This loss was probably more my choice in armies. I was hoping that the sidekicks would be able to put some smaller hits on the Wrecking Crew but Tempest and Black Bat fell too quickly for them to even set up their offensive. The Wrecking Crew beat the two key players and steamrolled Black Bat’s sidekicks.

HIGHLIGHTS

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1
Wrecker wounds Tempest (3)
Black Bat wounds Wrecker (5), Fists of Fury activates but the next attack is blocked
Wrecker wounds Black Bat (3) no Defensive Premonition
Jason Todd wounds Bulldozer (5)
Black Bat puts 3 wounds on Wrecker, Fists of Fury activates but next attack is blocked.

Round 2
Wrecker puts 3 wounds on Black Bat (0) no Defensive Premonition
Bulldozer puts 3 wounds on Jason Todd (3)
Thunderball wounds Tempest (2)
Tempest uses Mystic Tempest and wounds Bulldozer (4)
Wrecker wounds Tempest (1)
Wrecker destroys Tempest (0)

Round 3
Wrecker puts 2 wounds on Tim Drake (2)
Thunderball destroys Tim Drake (0)
Damian Wayne puts an impressive 4 wounds on Bulldozer and destroysd him (0)
Wrecker puts 3 wounds on Damian Wayne (0)
Thunderball puts 2 wounds on Spoiler (2)
Wrecker puts 2 wounds on Gordon (1)

Round 4
Wrecker puts 2 wounds on Gordon, destroying him (0)
Thunderball puts 3 wounds on Spoiler (0)
Piledriver puts 3 wounds on Catgirl (1)
Wrecker destroys Catgirl (0)

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Piledriver (6), Thunderball (6), Wrecker (2).

___________________________________________________________

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY:
I feel as though I didn’t get to use Black Bat to her full potential, I can definitely see her usefulness but because I didn’t successfully roll for Defensive Premonition once, she died very quickly in my matches. Her draftability is great in many Batman builds, too bad my unlucky rolls lead to my loss. I think if I used Alfred I could have made her last longer and be more effective. She was very dangerous with height and I liked pairing her with the Bat-Grapple to achieve quick height over my opponents. In my first game she killed Killer Croc (200) in one Fists of Fury barrage, which means she destroyed her own point value which is good. Even in my second game, she dealt 4 wounds to Wreck (230) which means she took down 153.3 points before she fell.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: (fill in here)
I got super excited when I crushed Killer Croc in the first round. I was definitely worried that she was too good at that point but then the luck gods switched teams and she fell quickly. That single moment made her very fun and memorable to me. I like that she isn’t just another Batman secondary character with Vigilante Bonding and Bat-Grapple (ironically enough I gave her Bat-Grapple utility glyph but my point still stands.) My main issue was that she died too quick but that fix is already designed into her card, I just didn’t roll successfully for the extra defence or counter strike power.

Looking good. She rolled well on offense but poorly on defense, and did around her points worth both games.

I think this is my favorite version so far. If we can get one more set of tests along these lines hopefully we can go forward here.

[Viegon]

Managed to fit in some small games with her at 5 attack and DP 11. She showed a little strong in these games, but 1) in the first two games I forgot to adjust for her at 200 points, giving her team a 20 point advantage; 2) in all except the last game, the opposing team consistently had poor luck; and 3) it all came out to an even 2 wins and 2 losses, meaning even when she did amazing, it was at the expense of the rest of her team. So overall, with these games and BamBam's games, I'm pretty happy with this version at 200 points. Thoughts from anyone else?

Army Test 1
Map: Swamp Lab (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Black Bat, Robin (Damian), Robin (Dick), Oracle, Nite Owl (620 points) VS Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Moon Knight (600 points)

Spoiler Alert!

UNIT SUM-UP
Damage:
Normal Attack: 5 wounds to Iron Fist, 3 wounds to Luke Cage.
Defensive Premonition 11: 1 wound to Luke Cage.
Power Usage/Effectiveness:
Utility Belt 1: Chose Bolas, 12+ rolled 3 times out of 3 rolls. Placed on Luke Cage, who dealt himself a wound to remove it; placed on Luke, prevented him from moving and subtracted his defense; placed on Iron Fist, prevented him from moving and subtracted his defense.
Fists of Fury: 6 additional attacks in 6 attacking turns.
Defensive Premonition 11: 11+ rolled 2 times out of 4 rolls.

GAME SUMMARY:
Black Bat hit her first three Bolas rolls, really allowing the Vigilantes to control the battle. Moon Knight failed when he dropped in, and Black Bat and Damian got some lucky attacks to take down Iron Fist quickly. Luke went down with an OM still on his card. Moon Knight weathered a few attacks and managed to KO Black Bat, but that was all he could achieve before going down.

Round One: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Dick advance.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight jumps on his card.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Damian advance.
ARMY 2: Luke and Danny moves.
ARMY 1: Black Bat bolas Luke; Dick fails.
ARMY 2: Danny positions to protect Luke while Luke deals himself a wound to remove the bola.

Round Two: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Damian put 4 wounds on Danny; Black Bat bolas Luke again.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight fails.
ARMY 1: Black Bat dodges a disengagement and bolas Danny, but both her and Dick fail their attacks.
ARMY 2: Luke and Danny put 1 wound on Black Bat (Danny heals himself).
ARMY 1: Black Bat finishes off Danny and puts 2 wounds on Luke; Dick fails.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight and Luke fail (Luke takes a wound from DP).

Round Three: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Black Bat kills Luke; Damian fails.
ARMY 2: Turn lost on Luke.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Nite Owl fail.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight puts 1 wound on Black Bat.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Nite Owl put 1 wound on Moon Knight.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight kills Black Bat.

Round Four: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Damian put 1 wound on Moon Knight.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight fails.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Damian kill Moon Knight.

Nite Owl, Dick, Damian, and Oracle all unwounded.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 2
Map: Swamp Lab (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Black Bat, Robin (Damian), Robin (Dick), Oracle, Nite Owl (620 points) VS Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Moon Knight (600 points)

Spoiler Alert!

UNIT SUM-UP
Damage:
Normal Attack: 2 wounds to Luke Cage.
Defensive Premonition 11: N/A
Power Usage/Effectiveness:
Utility Belt 1: Chose Bolas, 12+ rolled 1 time out of 3 rolls. Placed on Luke Cage, prevented his movement and subtracted from a defense roll.
Fists of Fury: 2 additional attacks in 2 attacking turns.
Defensive Premonition 11: 11+ rolled 1 time out of 3 rolls.

GAME SUMMARY:
Moon Knight dropped earlier this time and managed to KO Damian in one hit. Luke and Iron Fist put up a better fighter and managed to KO Black Bat before she could go crazy. Nite Owl and Dick went on a hot streak, taking down Iron Fist and Luke. Moon Knight should have still had an easy time claiming the win, except he missed more than half of his Crescent Dart rolls, buying Nite Owl and Dick the time to put a beating on him. However, Moon Knight finally got in some rolls to take them down, then cleaned-up Oracle to get the win.

Round One: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Dick advance.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight jumps on his card.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Damian advance.
ARMY 2: Luke and Danny advance.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Dick put 1 wound on Luke.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight drops and kills Damian.

Round Two: Army 2 wins Initiative.
ARMY 2: Luke and Danny fail.
ARMY 1: Black Bat bolas Luke, but her and Dick fail their attacks.
ARMY 2: Luke and Danny put 1 wound on Black Bat.
ARMY 1: Black Bat takes a disengagement wound to put 2 wounds on Luke; Dick fails.
ARMY 2: Luke and Danny kill Black Bat.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Dick fail.

Round Three: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl takes a disengagement wound, and him and Dick put 1 wound on Luke.
ARMY 2: Luke and Danny fail (Danny heals Luke).
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Dick put 3 wounds on Danny.
ARMY 2: Luke and Danny put 1 wound on Nite Owl and 1 on Dick.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Dick kill Danny and put 1 wound on Luke.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight grabs the bolas but fails.

Round Four: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Dick kill Luke.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight fails.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl puts 1 wound on Moon Knight; Dick grab the bolas, putting 1 on Moon Knight, but fails.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight puts 1 wound on Nite Owl and 1 on Dick.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Dick put 1 wound on Moon Knight.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight kills Nite Owl.

Round Five: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Dick fails.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight fails.
ARMY 1: Dick puts 2 wounds on Moon Knight.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight kills Dick.
ARMY 1: Oracle moves.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight puts 3 wounds on Oracle.

Round Six: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Oracle moves.
ARMY 2: Moon Knight kills Oracle.

Moon Knight with 4 wounds.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 3
Map: Swamp Lab (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Black Bat, Robin (Dick), Oracle, Nite Owl, Catgirl (600 points) VS Wolverine, Banshee, Wild Child (600 points)

Spoiler Alert!

UNIT SUM-UP
Damage:
Normal Attack: 3 wounds to Banshee, all 4 wounds to Wild Child, 7 wounds to Wolverine.
Defensive Premonition 11: N/A
Power Usage/Effectiveness:
Utility Belt 1: Chose Bolas, 12+ rolled 3 times out of 5 rolls. Placed on Banshee, very helpful in preventing him from moving; placed on Wolverine, subtracted a defense roll; placed on Wolverine, subtracted a defense roll.
Fists of Fury: 3 additional attacks in 7 attacking turns (multiple turns she ran out of targets).
Defensive Premonition 11: 11+ rolled 1 time out of 3 rolls.

GAME SUMMARY:
Banshee came in to bomb the other team, but never managed more than 1 skull. Black Bat stuck him in place with the bolas, then proceeded to KO him. Wolverine and Wild Child couldn't manage any good attack rolls, and their defense rolls were even worse. Neither of them lasted more than a couple of turns.

Round One: Army 2 wins Initiative.
ARMY 2: Banshee flies forward.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Catgirl position.
ARMY 2: Banshee fails.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Dick charge and bola Banshee.
ARMY 2: Banshee puts 1 wound on Catgirl.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Nite Owl fails.

Round Two: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Nite Owl put 3 wounds on Banshee.
ARMY 2: Banshee puts 1 wound on Nite Owl.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Catgirl kill Banshee.
ARMY 2: Turn lost on Banshee.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Dick charge.
ARMY 2: Wolverine and Wild Child move.

Round Three: Army 2 wins Initiative.
ARMY 2: Wolverine and Wild Child put 1 wound on Catgirl.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Dick kill Wild Child.
ARMY 2: Wolverine puts 1 wound on Black Bat.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Dick put 1 wound on Wolverine.
ARMY 2: Wolverine puts 2 wounds on Dick.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Nite Owl put 2 wounds on Wolverine.
ROUND END: Wolvie heals.

Round Four: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Black Bat kills Wolverine.

Black Bat with 1 wound, Dick with 2 wounds, Catgirl with 2 wounds, Nite Owl with 1 wound, Oracle unwounded.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 4
Map: Swamp Lab (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Black Bat, Robin (Dick), Oracle, Nite Owl, Catgirl (600 points) VS Wolverine, Banshee, Wild Child (600 points)

Spoiler Alert!

UNIT SUM-UP
Damage:
Normal Attack: 3 wounds to Banshee
Defensive Premonition 11: N/A
Power Usage/Effectiveness:
Utility Belt 1: Chose Bolas, 12+ rolled 1 time out of 2 rolls. Placed on Banshee, reduced defense.
Fists of Fury: 1 additional attack in 1 attacking turn.
Defensive Premonition 11: 11+ rolled 0 times out of 3 rolls.

GAME SUMMARY:
Banshee's SA was just as weak this time, but he got a lucky normal attack hit to KO Black Bat. Nite Owl and Dick teamed up to finish him off, but Wolverine and Wild Child were an unstoppable force this time, taking down the rest of the Vigilantes in a few more rounds without taking any substantial hits.

Round One: Army 2 wins Initiative.
ARMY 2: Banshee moves.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Catgirl move.
ARMY 2: Banshee fails.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Dick fail.
ARMY 2: Banshee fails.
ARMY 1: Black Bat and Dick bola Banshee.

Round Two: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Black Bat puts 3 wounds on Banshee.
ARMY 2: Banshee kills Black Bat.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Dick fail.
ARMY 2: Banshee grabs the bolas but fails.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Dick fail.
ARMY 2: Wolvie and Wild Child move.

Round Three: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Nite Owl and Dick put 3 wounds on Wild Child.
ARMY 2: Wolvie and Wild Child kill Nite Owl.
ARMY 1: Dick kills Banshee.
ARMY 2: Wolvie and Wild Child move.
ARMY 1: Dick puts 1 wound on Wolvie.
ARMY 2: Wolvie and Wild Child kill Dick.

Round Four: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Catgirl moves.
ARMY 2: Wolvie and Wild Child put 2 wounds on Catgirl.
ARMY 1: Catgirl puts 1 wound on Wild Child.
ARMY 2: Wolvie and Wild Child kill Catgirl.
ARMY 1: Oracle moves.
ARMY 2: Wolvie and Wild Child put 1 wound on Oracle.

Round Five: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Oracle fails.
ARMY 2: Wolvie and Wild Child kill Oracle.

Wolverine unwounded, Wild Child unwounded.

[TrollBrute]

Looking pretty good at 200.

[Viegon]

SP updated to 200 points, 5 attack, and DP11. This version has 2 wins and 4 losses, which feels like a good balance against the stronger version from before (190 points, 5 attack, and DP9), which got 4 wins to 1 loss. Overall, I'm settled with this version, so I propose we (finally) move Black Bat to Final Editing.

VOTES:
japes - Yea
johnny139 - Yea
Tornado - Yea
TrollBrute - Yea
Yodaking - Yea
Zettian Juggernaut -

[johnny139]

I'm good with that (and found her very fun in that iteration, more or less) so Yea for sure.

[Yodaking]

yea