HoME Design Thread

[caps]

Heroes of Middle Earth

Design

This thread is created for the purpose of serving as the discussion area for all units that are currently in the design phase of their development in HomE.

Once a unit is voted into Design, the designer shall post the WorkBook of that unit in this thread, and maintain that post as the single record of the unit. Any changes made to a unit are to be done in the WorkBook post, in this thread.

All units currently in Design will be indexed in this post for quick and easy reference, along with the name of the designer and the date it entered Design.

Should the designer feel that their unit is ready to move on to Playtesting, that member may propose that the unit move to Playtesting. Should the vote pass, the unit may move on to Playtesting.

Topics for discussion in this thread include unit stats, powers, official wording for power text, figure choice, and other details for designs. All members are encouraged to voice their opinions in this thread, regarding the units that are currently in Design.

UNITS CURRENTLY IN DESIGN:
None, as of 08/01/13

[White Knight]

THE WORKBOOK OF GANDALF (THE GREY)
(Under Construction)

DESIGNER = White Knight

Lord of the Rings Set

FIGURE USED FOR UNIT: Gandalf, The Hobbit Heroclix set


NAME = GANDALF
GENERAL = JANDAR
SPECIES = MAIA
PLANET = ARDA
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = WIZARD
PERSONALITY = WISE
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

STATS, MASTER/BASIC
LIFE = 7
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 180

BLAZING STRIKE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All opponents' figures adjacent to Gandalf are affected by Blazing Strike Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. At the end of your turn, after using Blazing Strike Special Attack, you may move Gandalf up to 4 spaces. Gandalf does not take leaving engagement attacks when moving this way.

LEADERSHIP
After taking a turn with Gandalf, you may move up to 3 small or medium Unique Heroes you control up to 4 spaces each. Any figures moved by Leadership must end their movement adjacent to Gandalf. Figures moved by Leadership do not take leaving engagement attacks.


Character Bio: (Insert Character Bio here)


-RULINGS and CLARIFICATIONS-
(Insert questions and answers about unit function and/or power interpretation)


-COMBINATIONS and SYNERGIES-
Synergy Benefits Received
(Insert links to figures that benefit the unit, and short explanation of synergy)

Synergy Benefits Offered
(Insert links to figures that this unit benefits, and a short explanation of synergy)

[White Knight]

I know there are some things about the current version of Gandalf the Grey that were brought up on Brainstorming and need discussion. Now is the time to discuss them.

My suggested change for Inspire Hope:

INSPIRE HOPE
All friendly Unique Heroes within 4 clear sight spaces of Gandalf may add 1 to their attack and 1 to their defense.

This will help an all-hero army, but it won't benefit squads at all (keeping his cost in check).

[Son of Arathorn]

To be honest, I can see Gandalf without any version of Inspired Hope. Does he really need that it? If we did away with it, we could keep down his cost, and make the Fellowship sturdier even after he dies. If we're in a scenario where the Fellowship are designed based on the premise that they'll usually have +1 attack/defense, they'll have to be weaker or more expensive to achieve well-rounded heroes, which I'd like each member of the Fellowship to be.

We also need to find a miniature for Gandalf.

The problem we'll likely face will be availability. The Gandalf from the previous LoTR Clix set started cheap and plentiful. Now it's upwards of $20.00 and about as common as Gladiatrons. Does anybody know if HeroClix will put out another set for the next two Jackson films? If not, we may want to start stockpiling any miniature we choose now, so we can keep the price artificially low until we're done with the design.

[infectedsloth]

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

To be honest, I can see Gandalf without any version of Inspired Hope. Does he really need that it? If we did away with it, we could keep down his cost, and make the Fellowship sturdier even after he dies. If we're in a scenario where the Fellowship are designed based on the premise that they'll usually have +1 attack/defense, they'll have to be weaker or more expensive to achieve well-rounded heroes, which I'd like each member of the Fellowship to be.

I'm going to have to agree with this, especially the last part.

I'd change leadership to small and medium unique heroes, mostly for themes sake. As is, I'm not a fan of the name Inspire Hope, it doesn't seem like the best fit thematically. Leadership isn't a bad name, but I think we can come up with something less bland. Lastly I'd still rather him have a range off 1 and follow Ullar.

[White Knight]

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

To be honest, I can see Gandalf without any version of Inspired Hope. Does he really need that it? If we did away with it, we could keep down his cost, and make the Fellowship sturdier even after he dies. If we're in a scenario where the Fellowship are designed based on the premise that they'll usually have +1 attack/defense, they'll have to be weaker or more expensive to achieve well-rounded heroes, which I'd like each member of the Fellowship to be.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't think it will work out that way:

With Inspire Hope:
1) Gandalf will be accurately priced based upon all his abilities, including Inspire Hope, versus classic Scape figures.
2) The other Fellowship figures will be accurately priced based upon their abilities versus classic Scape figures.
3) For a scenario, we add up all the points of the Fellowship figures and then decide on a point value for the bad guys.
4) Hopefully Gandalf will help take out his points' worth of figures before he is destroyed.

Without Inspire Hope:
1) Gandalf will be accurately priced based upon all his abilities versus classic Scape figures.
2) The other Fellowship figures will be accurately priced based upon their abilities versus classic Scape figures.
3) For a scenario, we add up all the points of the Fellowship figures and then decide on a point value for the bad guys.
4) Hopefully Gandalf will help take out his points' worth of figures before he is destroyed.

Either way, if you lose Gandalf you lose his all of his abilities (all of his points' worth). He can't attack anymore. He can't act as a screen anymore. There is no way that the Fellowship will be "sturdier" after Gandalf is destroyed, unless we add an ability like Finn's "Attack Spirit".

It's the same as any other Heroscape hero. If you lose Raelin, or Marcus Decimus Gallus, or Cyprien, your army is going to be weaker.

Remember that the full cost of Inspire Hope goes on Gandalf--it does not affect the costs of any other figures.

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

We also need to find a miniature for Gandalf.

Gandalf from new The Hobbit Heroclix set looks good, is common, and is $2.99 at Troll and Toad. They have 11 in stock right now. Cool Stuff Inc. has 12+ in stock. I don't think we'll get any better.

[underling]

Originally Posted by White Knight

THE WORKBOOK OF GANDALF (THE GREY)
(Under Construction)

DESIGNER = White Knight

Lord of the Rings Set

FIGURE USED FOR UNIT: (Insert name(s) and set of origin for figure(s) used for this design)
(Insert image(s) of figure(s) used for this design)


(CARD IMAGE)

NAME = GANDALF
GENERAL = JANDAR
SPECIES = MAIA
PLANET = ARDA
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = WIZARD
PERSONALITY = WISE
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

STATS, MASTER/BASIC
LIFE = 7
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 180

BLAZING STRIKE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All opponents' figures adjacent to Gandalf are affected by Blazing Strike Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. At the end of your turn, after using Blazing Strike Special Attack, you may move Gandalf up to 4 spaces. Gandalf does not take leaving engagement attacks when moving this way.

INSPIRE HOPE
At the beginning of the round you may choose one Unique Hero within 4 clear sight spaces of Gandalf. Add 1 to that figure's attack and defense until the end of the round.

LEADERSHIP
After taking a turn with Gandalf, you may move up to 3 Unique Heroes you control up to 6 spaces each. Any figures moved by Leadership must end their movement adjacent to Gandalf.


Character Bio: (Insert Character Bio here)


-RULINGS and CLARIFICATIONS-
(Insert questions and answers about unit function and/or power interpretation)


-COMBINATIONS and SYNERGIES-
Synergy Benefits Received
(Insert links to figures that benefit the unit, and short explanation of synergy)

Synergy Benefits Offered
(Insert links to figures that this unit benefits, and a short explanation of synergy)

Alrighty, it's posted, so I'm assuming you're asking for it (suggestions, that is...)

#1
I still view the SAs as the magic, so reduce the range to 1. This represents Gandalf swinging a staff or sword.

#2
Inspire Hope: At the beginning of the round, roll a d20. On a 11+ or higher any Unique Hero within 2 clear sight spaces of Gandalf adds 1 to their attack and defense until the end of the round. This takes the place of Gandalf's normal attack.

#3
After taking a turn with Gandalf, you may move up to 3 Unique Heroes you control up to 3 spaces each. Any figures moved by Leadership must end their movement within two spaces of Gandalf. This takes the place of Gandalf's normal attack.


Kevin

[White Knight]

Originally Posted by underling

#1
I still view the SAs as the magic, so reduce the range to 1. This represents Gandalf swinging a staff or sword.

This will have to be up to a vote. From the Brainstorming thread, there are several people who think a ranged normal attack is better--at least from a gameplay point of view. I'd like others to comment on this as well.

Originally Posted by underling

#2
Inspire Hope: At the beginning of the round, roll a d20. On a 11+ or higher any Unique Hero within 2 clear sight spaces of Gandalf adds 1 to their attack and defense until the end of the round. This takes the place of Gandalf's normal attack.

I don't see what reason you have for watering down the power like that.

1) You reduced the range, forcing you to keep your main fighter even closer to you.
2) You added a 20-sided die roll, giving it only a 50% chance of being successful.
3) You must use an Order Marker on Gandalf (probably OM #1) but you cannot attack-- just for a 50% chance to give your chosen hero a boost for OMs 2 and 3.
4) You limited it to 1 hero, making a weak ability already weaker.

As SoA said in the Brainstorming thread:

If you're taking a turn with a standalone Unique Hero, chances are you're not relying on the normal attack to make or break the turn, you're relying on something like a special attack (in the case of dragons like Nilfhiem) or a D20 power (like Braxas) or some other special power.

Special powers and attacks are not affected by Inspire Hope.

One of Capsocrates' goals in the Brainstorming thread was to make an all-hero army more viable:

I don't want to see Gandalf as a dust-gatherer. I want to see him as the centerpiece of the Fellowship, and capable of making them (an all-heroes army) capable of standing toe-to-toe with squad-based armies; or at least more capable of doing so than most all-hero armies.

Originally Posted by underling

#3
After taking a turn with Gandalf, you may move up to 3 Unique Heroes you control up to 3 spaces each. Any figures moved by Leadership must end their movement within two spaces of Gandalf. This takes the place of Gandalf's normal attack.

Is there a reason you reduced the movement to 3 and made it within two spaces of Gandalf, or is it just an alternate idea? I don't see how it helps improve the design.

And why did you weaken it so that Gandalf cannot attack? The whole original theme of Blazing Strike with Leadership was so that Gandalf could attack and stun his opponents, giving the rest of the fellowship time to flee.

[caps]

The SA is one kind of magic, area-effect magic, lightning strikes, circles of flames, etc.. The normal attack is a combination of things--ranged magic, enflamed pinecones, stunning blows, his sword, etc.

As far as Inspire Hope I prefer one of two options:
*keep it as-is, a small boost to one hero each round--sometimes useful, sometimes not.
*drop it altogether and leave Gandalf as a two-power hero with only Blazing Strike and Leadership.

I would prefer Leadership to only move friendly figures 4 spaces. As-is, Gandalf can just drag Raelin around every turn--I'd like him to have to move more slowly.

[underling]

Originally Posted by White Knight

This will have to be up to a vote. From the Brainstorming thread, there are several people who think a ranged normal attack is better--at least from a gameplay point of view. I'd like others to comment on this as well.

Understood...

If it's going to remain a ranged 4 normal attack, though, I think I'd reduce the attack dice.

Originally Posted by White Knight

I don't see what reason you have for watering down the power like that.

1) You reduced the range, forcing you to keep your main fighter even closer to you.
2) You added a 20-sided die roll, giving it only a 50% chance of being successful.
3) You must use an Order Marker on Gandalf (probably OM #1) but you cannot attack-- just for a 50% chance to give your chosen hero a boost for OMs 2 and 3.
4) You limited it to 1 hero, making a weak ability already weaker.

As SoA said in the Brainstorming thread:

My intent wasn't to limit it to one hero.
I believe I worded it to say any hero within 2 spaces, meaning all heroes within two spaces.
If 11+ is too low, simply up the chance to 5+ or 6+. If it's all heroes within 2 spaces, though, I don't think that should be an automatic success. There should be some chance of it not working.
But my intent was for any and all heroes within two spaces to get Gandalf's defensive bonus.

Originally Posted by White Knight

Is there a reason you reduced the movement to 3 and made it within two spaces of Gandalf, or is it just an alternate idea? I don't see how it helps improve the design.
And why did you weaken it so that Gandalf cannot attack? The whole original theme of Blazing Strike with Leadership was so that Gandalf could attack and stun his opponents, giving the rest of the fellowship time to flee.

The reason the movement is reduced is that I'm guessing most movement for these customs will be around 5 or 6 hexes. I just wanted the effect to not grant a full move bonus, but somewhere in the 50% movement range.
I also allowed for them to end up a little farther from Gandalf.

And yep, all of the above are just alternate ideas.

Kevin

[faure]

Catching up on the design/comments here:

The SA is one kind of magic, area-effect magic, lightning strikes, circles of flames, etc.. The normal attack is a combination of things--ranged magic, enflamed pinecones, stunning blows, his sword, etc.

Absolutely agree. I want to see him with a Ranged normal attack -- I think it fits with his wizard powers.

As far as Inspire Hope I prefer one of two options:
*keep it as-is, a small boost to one hero each round--sometimes useful, sometimes not.
*drop it altogether and leave Gandalf as a two-power hero with only Blazing Strike and Leadership.

I like the small boost to one hero -- Gandalf can only pay so much attention in the midst of everything, but may give just the right edge to that one person. I think that should work.

I would prefer Leadership to only move friendly figures 4 spaces. As-is, Gandalf can just drag Raelin around every turn--I'd like him to have to move more slowly.

I think I noted I playtested the early draft version where he was moving figures 6 spaces, and my reaction was it was too much at that point [especially where most figures have a Move of 5]. While you could look at it as the "run, you fool!" command, in which case a rapid move would fit, I think it has a high chance for abuse, dragging Raelin or others quickly across the board. I'd go for the 4 spaces -- you can advance a group, but there's some penalty for doing so, or get a group a reasonable distance away. I think they need to end adjacent to Gandalf and it should be at the end of his turn (after, not replacing, attacks).

[faure]

Gandalf from new The Hobbit Heroclix set looks good, is common,

It also comes in the Starter Set.
I have it, it's a good Gandalf, and he looks very much the Grey Pilgrim.