The Book of Liberty Belle (Jesse Chambers)

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

You wouldn't have to give her any more powers, just Move 9 and Flying.

Personally, a DC speedster without the Superspeed or Speed Force special power would be weird and a theme fail.

Also, I didn't mean a Jesse Quick design that had Liberty Belle's strength built in, I meant a Jesse Quick design that also had a power like this:

You may draft one other Jesse Chambers figure that is not a [insert class]. Place the other Jesse Chambers figure on this card. While there is a different Jesse Chambers figure on this card, Jesse Quick adds # to her Attack and Defense numbers and gains the Super Strength special power. When defending against a normal attack with Jesse Quick while there is a different Jesse Chambers figure on this card, the most wounds she can receive from that attack is one.

This way, you could play Liberty Belle by herself, you could play Jesse Quick by herself, or you could spend the points on both of them and get a combined version. Three different designs in two.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

How long was she back to the name Jesse Quick? I only remember her switching back very, very briefly during Blackest Night.

I could be wrong, but I was pretty certain she's continued going as Jesse Quick since Blackest Night.

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

I would drop her attack by one. With Hourman adjacent, you'll get two attacks, both with +1.

Yeah, but 4 base attack feels low thematically. Plus, it's only attack bonding so keeping them together is going to be hard.

[johnny139]

Originally Posted by Viegon

Personally, a DC speedster without the Superspeed or Speed Force special power would be weird and a theme fail.

Also, I didn't mean a Jesse Quick design that had Liberty Belle's strength built in, I meant a Jesse Quick design that also had a power like this:

You may draft one other Jesse Chambers figure that is not a [insert class]. Place the other Jesse Chambers figure on this card. While there is a different Jesse Chambers figure on this card, Jesse Quick adds # to her Attack and Defense numbers and gains the Super Strength special power. When defending against a normal attack with Jesse Quick while there is a different Jesse Chambers figure on this card, the most wounds she can receive from that attack is one.

This way, you could play Liberty Belle by herself, you could play Jesse Quick by herself, or you could spend the points on both of them and get a combined version. Three different designs in two.

I like that. Assuming there's comic precedence for there being three different power sets, I can roll with that.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Viegon

Personally, a DC speedster without the Superspeed or Speed Force special power would be weird and a theme fail.

Also, I didn't mean a Jesse Quick design that had Liberty Belle's strength built in, I meant a Jesse Quick design that also had a power like this:

You may draft one other Jesse Chambers figure that is not a [insert class]. Place the other Jesse Chambers figure on this card. While there is a different Jesse Chambers figure on this card, Jesse Quick adds # to her Attack and Defense numbers and gains the Super Strength special power. When defending against a normal attack with Jesse Quick while there is a different Jesse Chambers figure on this card, the most wounds she can receive from that attack is one.

This way, you could play Liberty Belle by herself, you could play Jesse Quick by herself, or you could spend the points on both of them and get a combined version. Three different designs in two.

Innovative, so I like it, but it's going to be a design challenge for sure!

One problem, I'm thinking, is that if the other Jesse Quick doesn't gain the rest of the special powers here, it's going to be really hard to justify the cost of combining the two.

Most of a unit's cost comes from their life and their special powers. Here, you'll have 5 Life, a defensive boosting power, a bonding power, and a defensive power for her that you're essentially throwing away, while paying the cost for them. Is the attack and defense boost going to be that powerful to justify the cost?

Let's say the design in the OP costs, say, 210 points and you make another version of Jesse with Super Speed that costs, say, 170 points. Is she going to be worth 380 points because she goes up, say, 2 in her attack and defense and gains Super Strength? Because (unless she has offensive or defensive powers that really gain from more attack or defense) that's more like a 50 point bump most of the time.

It's a cool idea, but it might be worth thinking through both designs fully before getting too far with this one, or it might not work the way you want it to.

Edit: I missed the Magical Defense like part of that. It's helpful for sure. So long as she was still married to and working with her husband at that point in her career, I think the solution is just to let her use all the powers from both cards, then roll with the rest as planned.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

OK, here's what I recall (up until New 52, I read all of JSA since its re-inception right after Grant Morrison's JLA took off.) Jesse originally was just a speedster following in her father's footsteps, although she alone had the power to fly. Later, after some issues with Wally wanting her to be the Flash and her not feeling up to it, she lost her ability to move at superhuman speeds (just like Wally did at one time.) She then visited her mother and discovered that she also inherited her powers (this was around the time the JSA was re-forming.) Shortly after they rechartered, she realized she still had both sets of powers. Most of her time in the JSA (spanning several years and more or less a hundred issues), she had both of their powers. Briefly, when asked to join Dick Grayson's Justice League (written by famed Starman writer, James Robinson), she re-claimed the mantle of Jesse Quick with both sets of powers. After Robinson's run on Justice League (17 issues featuring her), she went back to the JSA and Liberty Belle.

[IAmBatman]

Sounds like she was just Jesse Quick for a significant period, Liberty Belle with only Super Strength for a very limited period, than both Liberty Belle and Jesse Quick with both sets of powers for significant stretches. Thanks for the insight, Spidey! My concern was that the time period represented here was extremely niche, but I'm OK with it, because the innovative design approach Viegon's going for is interesting enough to make the journey worth taking, IMO. (I just wish I could have a Liberty Belle version that encompasses everything rather than a Jesse Quick one).

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Innovative, so I like it, but it's going to be a design challenge for sure!

One problem, I'm thinking, is that if the other Jesse Quick doesn't gain the rest of the special powers here, it's going to be really hard to justify the cost of combining the two.

Yeah, since I posted the power I've been thinking about it and this has been my main concern. I do think it's workable though, it'll just be tough.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

So long as she was still married to and working with her husband at that point in her career, I think the solution is just to let her use all the powers from both cards, then roll with the rest as planned.

I contemplated it, but I wasn't certain if Jesse Quick should be getting Society Fortitude or not. It would be a cleaner approach.

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

OK, here's what I recall (up until New 52, I read all of JSA since its re-inception right after Grant Morrison's JLA took off.) Jesse originally was just a speedster following in her father's footsteps, although she alone had the power to fly. Later, after some issues with Wally wanting her to be the Flash and her not feeling up to it, she lost her ability to move at superhuman speeds (just like Wally did at one time.) She then visited her mother and discovered that she also inherited her powers (this was around the time the JSA was re-forming.) Shortly after they rechartered, she realized she still had both sets of powers. Most of her time in the JSA (spanning several years and more or less a hundred issues), she had both of their powers. Briefly, when asked to join Dick Grayson's Justice League (written by famed Starman writer, James Robinson), she re-claimed the mantle of Jesse Quick with both sets of powers. After Robinson's run on Justice League (17 issues featuring her), she went back to the JSA and Liberty Belle.

This is how I remember it, though I thought the two sections I have in red lasted longer then you say. But it's been awhile so I could certainly be misremembering.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

My concern was that the time period represented here was extremely niche, but I'm OK with it, because the innovative design approach Viegon's going for is interesting enough to make the journey worth taking, IMO. (I just wish I could have a Liberty Belle version that encompasses everything rather than a Jesse Quick one).

Yeah, it would be a little better, thematically, if Liberty Belle had the combining power, but like I said I'd hate to drop any of the ones she has right now.

In the interest of making sure we're thinking this through before we move on with Liberty Belle, here's a rough write-up for Jesse Quick:

NAME = JESSE QUICK
SECRET IDENTITY = JESSE CHAMBERS

SPECIES = METAHUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = TITAN
PERSONALITY = CONFIDENT

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 10
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3

POINTS = ???

COMBINED POWERS (needs a better name)
You may draft one other Jesse Chambers figure that is a Protege. Place the other Jesse Chambers figure on this card. While there is a different Jesse Chambers figure on this card, Jesse Quick adds 1 to her Life, Attack, and Defense numbers and may use any special powers on the other Jesse Chambers' card in addition to her own. If any of its special powers refer to that figure, they refer to Jesse Quick instead.

3x2(9yZ)4A
Jesse Quick may move through all figures, never takes leaving engagement attacks, and does not have to stop her movement when entering water spaces. Immediately after moving with Jesse Quick, you may choose 1 figure Jesse Quick moved through this turn and roll an unblockable attack die against it.

SPEED DODGE 2
When Jesse Quick defends against an attack, and you roll at least one blank, Jesse Quick takes no damage and may immediately move up to 2 spaces.

FLYING

I was going to bump her attack and defense to 5, but 5 defense + Speed Dodge + Enhanced Durability would be too much. I swapped out generic Super Speed for a slightly different power so I could work in her father's formula. Thoughts?

[IAmBatman]

Maybe Metagenes or Generational Powers for the first power name?

I'd drop her Move to 9 or maybe even 8. She's not quite on the same speed level as Flash, and move 10 plus Flying is way faster than him, even with his extra 4 move after moving.

Is it thematic for her to harm things when she runs through them like Flash does? Or was the theme there that she shares space with them and sneaks in a sucker punch?

My biggest concern currently is that the combined Jesse Quick is going to cost more and be more powerful than Flash, and even with all of her powers I don't think that's thematic. I think to make this work you have to keep her very basic and low powered when the other Jesse isn't in the picture.

Also, I don't think it's thematic at all for her to be a Titan when she has the combined powers.

[johnny139]

I agree - I think if we're going in that direction, both units should be in the cheap side (~100 points).

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Maybe Metagenes or Generational Powers for the first power name?

Ooh, nice suggestions, I like them both.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'd drop her Move to 9 or maybe even 8. She's not quite on the same speed level as Flash, and move 10 plus Flying is way faster than him, even with his extra 4 move after moving.

Well, the Flash's have 12 move plus the extra 4, which would allow them to go 6 spaces more than her, but if you really think 10 is too high for her I'd be fine with dropping it some.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Is it thematic for her to harm things when she runs through them like Flash does? Or was the theme there that she shares space with them and sneaks in a sucker punch?

I don't know her as Jesse Quick that well, but I was aiming for the sneaky sucker punch theme. I figured she'd need more than a basic attack of 3 to be useful.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

My biggest concern currently is that the combined Jesse Quick is going to cost more and be more powerful than Flash, and even with all of her powers I don't think that's thematic. I think to make this work you have to keep her very basic and low powered when the other Jesse isn't in the picture.

Eh, Jesse is obviously not faster then Wally or Barry, but she should at least be on their level if not higher once you consider her super strength and durability. I was aiming to get Jesse Quick in around 120 and Liberty Belle at roughly 180, which would mean the combined version would only be 20 points more than Wally. That seems reasonable to me.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Also, I don't think it's thematic at all for her to be a Titan when she has the combined powers.

Well, my aim for the design was that when she's played solo it represents her early career (during which she was a Titan for at least a chunk of the time), and when combined it represents her currently. Maybe have her class change when combined?

Originally Posted by johnny139

I agree - I think if we're going in that direction, both units should be in the cheap side (~100 points).

I agree for the most part, but I also don't want us designing two different versions of Jesse that are thematically weak or not interesting/useful.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

OK, I really like the idea of combining them, but I'm not sure we are going about it in the best way. Liberty Belle could easily have all her powers represented in Stats or Icons, so I tend to think this would be a good place for the combining power. On the flip side, Jesse Quick was the guise she has spent more of her time as and consequently showed more different aspects of her personality. She ran her own Fortune 500 company, so she could re-use the money power (can't remember the name or mechanic right now) off of Black King and combine that with Speedster powers. Her Flying/ Movement number combo should be just a hair under Barry and Wally, but comparable to Bart and Jay.

As far as Belle version, I like the Defense idea, but I'd have her other two powers be the combine and a JSA leadership power. If anyone should Inspire the Justice Society of AMERICA, it should be someone named Liberty Belle.

[IAmBatman]

I forgot that Flashes were at 12 move! I was thinking 10 for some reason. Yeah, in that case 10 should work for her.

I think if you're really wanting to do the combining power, I'd strive for simplicity on both cards outside of that. Otherwise, it'll be a really difficult balancing act. I might lose Speed Dodge as well, because I think once you start getting into stat boosting it becomes more difficult to cost and balance.

Edit: Thematically, based on how she was treated in the comics, an earlier version of Jesse Quick being somewhere in the low 100s would make sense, IMO.

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

OK, I really like the idea of combining them, but I'm not sure we are going about it in the best way. Liberty Belle could easily have all her powers represented in Stats or Icons, so I tend to think this would be a good place for the combining power.

Her actual abilities don't need much to represent them, but I definitely don't want to drop Society Fortitude or Married Duo here as they represent her personality. We could replace Enhanced Durability, but personally I liked Liberty Belle bringing that power into the combined version.

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

On the flip side, Jesse Quick was the guise she has spent more of her time as and consequently showed more different aspects of her personality. She ran her own Fortune 500 company, so she could re-use the money power (can't remember the name or mechanic right now) off of Black King and combine that with Speedster powers. Her Flying/ Movement number combo should be just a hair under Barry and Wally, but comparable to Bart and Jay.

Eh, if we were going to work in a money power like that (which I'm not even sure I care for on her, the feels comes off wrong), I don't see why it couldn't go on either of them. I thought she was still running the company as Liberty Belle, but even if she wasn't, she was the business manager for the JSA.

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

As far as Belle version, I like the Defense idea, but I'd have her other two powers be the combine and a JSA leadership power. If anyone should Inspire the Justice Society of AMERICA, it should be someone named Liberty Belle.

Not sure what you're suggesting here. Are you saying you'd do something different with Society Fortitude?

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I think if you're really wanting to do the combining power, I'd strive for simplicity on both cards outside of that. Otherwise, it'll be a really difficult balancing act. I might lose Speed Dodge as well, because I think once you start getting into stat boosting it becomes more difficult to cost and balance.

Yeah, we'd probably be better off without Speed Dodge.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Edit: Thematically, based on how she was treated in the comics, an earlier version of Jesse Quick being somewhere in the low 100s would make sense, IMO.

That's what I was aiming for, I was hoping to have her come in just a little higher then the current Kid Flash design (he's at 110).