HoME Playtesting Thread

[faure]

Looking at your report, it looks like the heroes in the second game got hit with some consistently bad rolls--compounded with that are the DCoTs high, high attacks--they were born to kill heroes.

Two bad rolls did them in very quickly -- DCoT's got two 4 skull rolls, both Moriko and Syvarris whiffed and bye-bye heroes.

If we're concerned about Gandalf's fragility for a 180 point figure, I'd rather drop his points and life together. I've been pondering 140/150 points with 5 life. That would be a significant point drop while only being a small change to his life.

Gandalf is in an interesting niche at 180 points.
He's somewhat in the roll of Kato or the Hive, directing other figures, but only moving them, not supporting multiple actions.
He's somewhat in the roll of Niflheim or Zelrig with his special attack, but the attack requires adjacency, which may or may not be achievable.
He's somewhat in the roll of attacker like SotM Drake or Spartacus, but doesn't have the attack/defense to support that.

While I think the blend is thematic, it seems to work best when he's paired with a few heroes and some squads, particularly those that can bond with one of the other heroes.

What I'm not getting a feel for is Gandalf leading a group of heroes through the Goblin King's hall or in Moria. Is this something we'd get through lower points, lower life only? I'm not sure.

I still think the 4 move restriction is healthy.

Based on my earlier tests, I favored that as well. There are maps (such as Subterranea) where you need a 5 space move to make it up more than one level at a time if you want to get to the heights. But most maps have options and a different approach strategy might have worked better, particularly against a group without ranged attacks. So, for now, more testing with the 4 space movement seems reasonable.

[White Knight]

Thanks for the tests, Faure.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

If we're concerned about Gandalf's fragility for a 180 point figure, I'd rather drop his points and life together. I've been pondering 140/150 points with 5 life. That would be a significant point drop while only being a small change to his life. I still think the 4 move restriction is healthy.

Reducing his life while keeping him at 3 defense is not going to make Gandalf less frail--it will make him fall all that much sooner. If we decide Gandalf is too weak, I'd rather just drop his points and leave his life as it is. I like that he is a little hard to kill. Mimring is 5 life and 3 defense and he goes down really easily.

But thinking about it, we could fit in more heroes if Gandalf cost less points. His main job is to bring everyone into position and contribute some firepower. If we lower his life, though, he'll need some heroes to soak up the damage for him.

However, I'm not sure he's that frail:
Moltenclaw (6 life, 3 defense, 170 points)
Taelord (5 life, 3 defense, 180 points)
Braxas (8 life, 3 defense, 210 points)

Obviously those units are priced for much more than just survivability, but it does show that Gandalf is in the right ballpark for life and defense.

About changing the move from 4 to 5, I really don't think it will make that much of a difference. It will help in the first round or two to set up the heroes, but after that the combat will be melee and there won't be a lot of movement anyways.

[faure]

Originally Posted by White Knight
Reducing his life while keeping him at 3 defense is not going to make Gandalf less frail--it will make him fall all that much sooner. If we decide Gandalf is too weak, I'd rather just drop his points and leave his life as it is....
we could fit in more heroes if Gandalf cost less points. His main job is to bring everyone into position and contribute some firepower.

At this point, we don't have a huge number of tests. We've seen some tests where Gandalf worked fine, we've seen some where his band got blown away quickly.

I like the idea that we simply try him at a lower point value (maybe 160?) and keep the design as-is until we get some more tests in. That might allow just enough heroes (or just slightly stronger heroes) to counter multiple high attack values (e.g. Death Chasers or hydras).

[faure]

About changing the move from 4 to 5, I really don't think it will make that much of a difference.

It's all in the map! Tight climbs and single lane bridges will be the most limiting regardless.

It will help in the first round or two to set up the heroes, but after that the combat will be melee and there won't be a lot of movement anyways.

Actually, in my test of Gandalf and the knights, Gandalf was still moving Gilbert and Sullivan (gotta love that combo! ) in the 4th and 5th rounds, well after the initial movement. It proved very convenient to line up the other heroes for the right shot/attack.

[White Knight]

Originally Posted by faure

Actually, in my test of Gandalf and the knights, Gandalf was still moving Gilbert and Sullivan (gotta love that combo! ) in the 4th and 5th rounds, well after the initial movement. It proved very convenient to line up the other heroes for the right shot/attack.

In the 4th and 5th rounds, was he still moving them with a 4 move, where a 5 move would have made a difference?

[caps]

Originally Posted by faure

At this point, we don't have a huge number of tests. We've seen some tests where Gandalf worked fine, we've seen some where his band got blown away quickly.

I like the idea that we simply try him at a lower point value (maybe 160?) and keep the design as-is until we get some more tests in. That might allow just enough heroes (or just slightly stronger heroes) to counter multiple high attack values (e.g. Death Chasers or hydras).

I don't think I'm comfortable with Gandalf's incredible number of bells and whistles + 7 life at less than 180. He has an awful lot going on and I'm still not sure that he's overpriced there. But maybe I'm being ridiculous.

[faure]

Originally Posted by White Knight
In the 4th and 5th rounds, was he still moving them with a 4 move, where a 5 move would have made a difference?

I don't think it would have made a difference either way in the later rounds. For now, let's continue to see how it works with 4.

Originally Posted by capsocrates
I don't think I'm comfortable with Gandalf's incredible number of bells and whistles + 7 life at less than 180. He has an awful lot going on and I'm still not sure that he's overpriced there. But maybe I'm being ridiculous.

More playtests! I think that's the only thing that will tell whether it's right or not.
And I think we have to ask the question whether we want Gandalf + an all-heroes band to be playable against mobs of common squads that can hit hard?
That's the classic Hobbit/LotR scenario for Gandalf the Grey (Goblin King's hall, battle with the Wargs, Mines of Moria). And right now, I have not seen many successful tests of this scenario. It may be a strategy/right army issue, or it may be a design issue, but we need more evidence.

[infectedsloth]

Originally Posted by faure

You missed mine here:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...41&postcount=8

and here:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...6&postcount=11

Originally Posted by White Knight

WhiteKnight0

Updated.

Interesting discussion.

Gandalf armies should lose to DCoT and Hydras most of the time. 180 seems to be close to the correct points. I'd comment more but I still need to play some games with him.

[OEAO]

What if instead of attacking with him you can attack with multiple other heroes you control? He would be able to move them up and then attack with them, kind of like Omegacron. And lower the price, get rid of Blazing Strike SA, and lower the stats to make him completely the cheerleader that he was early on, while making Gandalf the white the fighter.

Right now, he is overpriced. Period. He can't be aggressive. He can't survive against commons for long. Squadscape > Heroscape. We haven't even tried him against 4th Mass.

[greygnarl]

I'd like to make sure that you guys are aware of the new Playtest Exchange that is up in the Customs forum. It could be a way to get some more people testing your units. Gandalf probably won't be a good fit there, but your future designs might.

Best wishes,
greygnarl

[caps]

Originally Posted by greygnarl

I'd like to make sure that you guys are aware of the new Playtest Exchange that is up in the Customs forum. It could be a way to get some more people testing your units. Gandalf probably won't be a good fit there, but your future designs might.

Best wishes,
greygnarl

Actually, Gandalf would probably be great there. If anyone in HoME wants to come up with the points and donate them for that purpose, that's fine with me.

[greygnarl]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Actually, Gandalf would probably be great there. If anyone in HoME wants to come up with the points and donate them for that purpose, that's fine with me.

My bad actually, I didn't realize Gandalf affected any heroes and not just future Fellowship ones. I thought you guys were just using random heroes as the test sbujects. Also, if you guys wanted to pool your points that would be fine, and I could just put HoME in the Playtest Tracker instead of a name.