Draft Tourney..... nearly as good as draft beer.

[Alastair MacDirk]

We had a tourney a month or so ago in Norcal (SF Bay area). We played 4 rounds on 4 differernt maps and had a draft before each round.

The rules: Each player is to bring 16 cards to the tournament. Each player is limited to 4 “A List” cards from Spider Poison’s Heroscape power ranking (see below). At the beginning of each game roll a d20 to determine starting zones, opponents will then combine their cards to create a draft pool of 32 cards. Players will have 2 minutes to review their combined draft pool. Each player will then draft a 510 point army from their combined draft pool. The winner of a d20 roll will draft first. Drafting will follow the procedure outlined in the rule book. The drafting of cards will be limited to 45 seconds per card (the second player gets 1.5 minutes for their 2 card draft). There will be an offical time keeper. Once time is called players must select a card. A player must place drafted units in their starting zone before their next turn drafting. Each card of a common squad must be drafted separately. Common squads may be split between players. Only one of each unique unit may drafted into a game.

Players will be limited to 4 cards from units ranked A+, A, or A- on Spider Poison’s Heroscape Power Ranking (LINK)

So the post tourney comments from 16 players were:
-Majority LOVED it.
-4 A+ to A- units made orc and knight and glad/blast armies tough to play
-At first we timed the picks with everyone picking in unison. Then we tried each pair of players timing their own draft.
-Some drafts finished early and some folks had a hard time controlling themselves and started the game before it "officially" started for timekeeping purposes.
-Some players had a strategy to bring 16 crappy units and then draft from the other players cards
-16 units combined with another players choices to make 32 was a good size..... enough to work some synergies, not so big that the possible choices were overwhelming

The Pros versus building a single tourney army:
1. You get to play a variety of figures and it doesn't get as stale... as say putting 80% of your turn markers on Q-9 or the 4th mass or Stingers all dang day.
2. You can counter whatever your opponent's army is
3. Instead of merely testing who brought the best army, it's a better test of who understands the game more... the synergies, the counters, what units are most appropriate for a given map.
4. Level playing field... it allows for less "powergaming" as players that don't have every exclusive and multi-packs of every common are not handicapped as they can still draft from whatever their opponent brought.
5. You see a wider variety of units in play than typical A-lister tourney armies.

Some of the problems:
1. While it was great to limit each player to only bringing 4 A-list units.... this made it difficult to field common A units at all.
2. The technique of "spoiling" a draft by taking the same common that your opponent drafts is also, ultimately... anti-common. It makes people shy away from wanting to bring any commons at all to the draft. If I did it again I might institute some kinda rule where when you draft a common your opponent is locked out from being able to also draft it... but you must keep drafting the same unit in successive rounds... i.e. as soon as you draft any other unit than the common you drafted the previous round... you are then locked out from drafting any more of that common unit.
3. Timing the draft could be tricky in a very large setting.

I do hope that more people will give this a try. If you've done very many tourneys and are looking for some fresh ideas.... I highly recommend a draft!

[Jexik]

But I like my stale armies-in-a-can. They're cheaper.

I'm actually not sure if I've played in enough tournaments to be jaded with premade armies yet though. My main worry is that the A+ (and some A) units are very different from the A- units. Someone could still have Q9/Laglor/Krav/Raelin with the 4-card limit. Sure, someone could break that draft up, but if even part of that was secured, a player left with a power-deficient drafting pool could have a lot of trouble competing.

As you've already said, this makes Roman, Knight, Orc, or even Aubrien Archer based armies harder to field.

Hmm this sounds really negative, but I actually do like the idea of a draft tourney, I'm just being fussy over the particulars.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by Alastair MacDirk

2. The technique of "spoiling" a draft by taking the same common that your opponent drafts is also, ultimately... anti-common. It makes people shy away from wanting to bring any commons at all to the draft. If I did it again I might institute some kinda rule where when you draft a common your opponent is locked out from being able to also draft it... but you must keep drafting the same unit in successive rounds... i.e. as soon as you draft any other unit than the common you drafted the previous round... you are then locked out from drafting any more of that common unit.

In my group, when you draft a common, you can draft any number of cards' worth all with one pick. It's probably not fair to the uniques, but I loathe this technique and am willing to pay a price to keep it from ever happening.

[Alastair MacDirk]

Originally Posted by Jexik

I'm actually not sure if I've played in enough tournaments to be jaded with premade armies yet though. My main worry is that the A+ (and some A) units are very different from the A- units. Someone could still have Q9/Laglor/Krav/Raelin with the 4-card limit. Sure, someone could break that draft up, but if even part of that was secured, a player left with a power-deficient drafting pool could have a lot of trouble competing.

Well, the way we had it set up, if you brought those 4 units in your bag o'pain (16 units total) as your A listers... it woulda gone ,like this. You take Raelin and the other guy gets Q9 and Laglor with the next 2 picks. Or you take Q-9 and he takes Raelin and Cyprien (from the pool he brought). I don't think anyone was getting the Q-9, Raelin combo. There are no chumps like that in the Norcal tourney scene that'd let that happen.

Jexik, you understand the pools are combined...

[spider_poison]

This is a really cool idea, and I'm flattered that you used my rankings to help with it. I agree that there is a problem with common squads in this format, but I'm not sure of the best way to fix it. Alastair, I'm interested in running a draft tourney myself, and I'm curious what you think of this:

Forget the rankings. Players can bring any units they want, and they also have no draft restrictions. Everything else is the same, but you encourage people to bring a wide variety of units. Do you think the same old tried-and-true tourney units would still dominate, or do you think people would actually bring less-used figures? I'm not exactly sure, but I do know that a player isn't at a disadvantage by bringing figures like Dund, Spartacus, and whatnot. As long as you're sharing the draft pool, I wouldn't think it would matter. Anyway, what do you think of this?

[Alastair MacDirk]

Spiderpoison,I encourage everyone to try anything! Well, when it comes to running a draft tourney anyhow. In response to your question.... when we limited to 4 'A-listers' in each players alotment it didn't exactly stop everyone from drafting them. If Q-9, Cyprien, Nilfheim, Raelin, the Krav, or the AE were available.... they got drafted. If Raelin was there she would go first usually. Why would anyone seriously draft Roman Archers instead in a competetive game? People will bring lesser used units as you hoped.... they just won't get drafted There is no easy way to force 'C-listers' into the mix really. I used the Shades a few times as I really like stealth flying and their movement to tie up ranged units. I used Mimring twice also as the new BOV maps favor ranged units that grab the high ground quite a bit.
On a side note: I think for the most part your power rankings are a very effective tool. I differ with the rank of a few units.... but only slightly.... you are definitely in the right ballpark on nearly everything. (Laglor too high, AE too low are a few that caught my eye)

[spider_poison]

Originally Posted by Alastair MacDirk

Spiderpoison,I encourage everyone to try anything! Well, when it comes to running a draft tourney anyhow. In response to your question.... when we limited to 4 'A-listers' in each players alotment it didn't exactly stop everyone from drafting them. If Q-9, Cyprien, Nilfheim, Raelin, the Krav, or the AE were available.... they got drafted. If Raelin was there she would go first usually. Why would anyone seriously draft Roman Archers instead in a competetive game? People will bring lesser used units as you hoped.... they just won't get drafted There is no easy way to force 'C-listers' into the mix really. I used the Shades a few times as I really like stealth flying and their movement to tie up ranged units. I used Mimring twice also as the new BOV maps favor ranged units that grab the high ground quite a bit.
On a side note: I think for the most part your power rankings are a very effective tool. I differ with the rank of a few units.... but only slightly.... you are definitely in the right ballpark on nearly everything. (Laglor too high, AE too low are a few that caught my eye)

Yeah, that's a good point. Better units will still be in the draft pool (pretty much) no matter what, so maybe a limitation is a good thing. If I were to do a draft tourney, I would like to see some of the neglected figures be used. If one person brought pretty much all top-tier units, the pool of units from the other player might hardly even be touched.

I'm glad you like the rankings as well. Quite a few people have told me the AE are too low, so I think I will bump them up. I also think Laglor might be a little high, but when considering the Q9/Raelin combo, he's huge (actually medium, but you know what I mean ). Add Krav to the mix and it's downright brutal. Anyway, yeah, I didn't mean to sidetrack this thread. Back on topic to draft tourney ideas...

[Rÿchean]

Here is some discussion that went on prior to the draft tournaments that were recently run:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...er=asc&start=0

Originally Posted by spider_poison

Yeah, that's a good point. Better units will still be in the draft pool (pretty much) no matter what, so maybe a limitation is a good thing. If I were to do a draft tourney, I would like to see some of the neglected figures be used. If one person brought pretty much all top-tier units, the pool of units from the other player might hardly even be touched.

I think using packs accomplishes this. It ensures that some less used units will be in the draft pool.

Here is the set up I used:

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

3-Pack Draft Tournament

Summary: Each player brings the figures, cards, and bits (turn markers, wounds, dice, special markers, etc..) from sets* of their choice. For each match in the tournament, both player's cards are available for draft by either player for that game. Players will follow Standard Drafting rules**. Armies drafted can not exceed 400 points. Each map will include terrain specific units that stay with the map through the day. (i.e. A lava map will have a set of obsidians guards assigned to the map and available in the draft.) Glyphs will be selected at random after units have been drafted and placed. Each individual game will begin as soon as both players complete their draft. Players will be redrafting an army for each game. The packs you brought go with you to the next draft game/round. Tournament will be run Swiss style with 4 rounds depending on the number of participants. Marvel is not included.

*Each player can bring any combination of sets that equal 3 packs. Boosters and sets are designated with these pack values:

1 Master Set (ROTV, ROTV w/EOV, or SOTM) = 3 packs
1 Large Hero Pack (Orm's; Raknar's) = 2 packs
1 Small Booster (Any small booster from any wave)= 1 pack
Flag bearers and Promos (Nerak, Hawthorne, Woo) any 4 = 1 pack (I.E. laglor, Woo, Nerak, Ornak would count as 1 pack)

! ! At least 1 Unique Pack is required ! !

Here is my final thoughts on the tournament:

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

I tracked the players by the uniques they brought. I don't think we had any matches where the players bought similar packs. This was dumb luck and would be hard to pull off in a larger tournament.

Most of the games were played really quickly. At 400 points and limited units to draft, the games flew. There were also a great many landslide victories. With limited power pieces, getting one usually meant victory. Changing the Master Set pack value to 4 and changing it to a 4-pack tournament might make for less land slide victories. The use of terrain commons with maps worked easily enough. Neither the Obsidians or Dzu-teh saw action in the games I played. Putting the 3 promos and 5 Flag bearers in a pool of 8 with any 4 as possible pack worked out well. Many players brought this type of pack. *If running this type of tournament with out the terrain commons on the maps, I would recommend that all 3, the Dumutef, Obsidians, and Dzu-teh count as 1 pack.

[NFCfan]

i think it would be fun if in addition to to the draft if before it started each person could elimiante 2 or 3 units from the pool and declare then unable to be drafted.

If you planned to draft Cyprien then you would maybe use your 3 elimination on Q9, Q10, and Blastatrons. If you plan to draft Tor Kul Na, then maybe you eliminate Krug, Stingers, and Knights, etc

[Hendal]

For the commons, I would almost think that once you draft one - you can keep drafting them as long as you want ( of course you would have to have enough of them there, which then means your bringing 16 cards but extra guys for the commons, I have no problem playing with proxies but I have not seen it allowed at any tourney ). Just an idea. I think it is the only way to make use of the commons in a tourney. That is the idea with commons , that you pick a bunch of them, for me if you do not field at least 3 or more of a common squad then you are not getting your points worth out of them, that is part of their pricing. Maybe limit the commons to 3 squads if you do it this way?
But if course then it is someone who just fields MM or stingers ( if you don't limit it ), which this system gets rid of.

It would be cool to hold a tourney where you could draft from everything, but you can only use a card one time in the whole tourney ( make a limit on the commons, so you can play up to 3 common squads one time only )? That would be very interesting. Make for a lot of pretty cool drafting. We also always play you can not pick the same unit as the other guy, which I think would work perfect in this type of drafting tourney?

[S1R_ART0R1US]

Wrong thread, oops!

[Targanth]

How would something like this work as an alternate Draft Tournament format?

The idea behind this is to play with and against a variety of armies. There are 5 matches in the tournament per player. Prior to the tournament, each player prepares an army of 3000 points. The army follows the standard rule of no duplicate heroes in the army (including Drake / Raelin). Marro Hive is not included. Marvel is not included. No more than 3 cards worth of any common army may be included in the 3000 points.

At the tournament and after learning what map will be played and who their opponent will be, the players draft from their own 3000 point total army a 500 points army for the first match. Draft follows the standard alternating format P1, P2, P2, P1, P1, P2, P2, P1. This allows each player to attempt to build an army to counter what their opponent drafts if they wish. When drafting a common army, all 3 cards of that army are taken in one draft round (unless fewer are desired). Any remaining army cards for that common army can not be used in any subsequent match.

At the end of the match, points are counted. The armies that were used in the first match are set aside and may not be used for the remainder of the tournament.

Players are assigned to their 2nd match and find out what map will be used. Following the same procedure, draft from the remaining 2500 army points another 500 point army.

Continue through 5 matches and determine the champion. Each player will still have 500 or more points of armies that are unused.

To add some additional variability, use Spider_Poisons' ranking list. No 3000 point army may contain more than 1 A+ unit (currently there are 4), no more than 6 (of the 12) A armies, and no more than 6 (of the 12) A- armies. There are no restrictions on units ranked lower than A-.

Note that this idea comes from someone that has never played in a tournament.....

No matter the number of army cards for a common army, the army may only be used in one match during the day. Would it be more appropriate to allow 4 cards of a common army (vs. the 3)? Maybe 5 cards?

Has this approach been tried by anyone? Would something like this work? Would it be fun? Or would the draft take too much time and slow the tournament down?