The Book of The Top

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by japes

Mine as well...

[Scapemage]

C3G INITIAL PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT The Top


Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Yes.
- What should be the unit's point value? 185-200 still feels good. Need more data.
- Give a brief overview. This game was really interesting since The Top changed sides really early on. He still brought the pain though, and showed how each of his moves (normal attack, Spinning Top, Explosive Top) could be used in different ways. He feels strong and I like that.
Map: Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh.
Units: The Top (185), Amanda Waller, Poison Ivy II, Animated Vines, and Bane (800) vs. Bulldozer, Piledriver, Thunderball, and Wrecker (800).

Spoiler Alert!

Normal Attack Damage:
1 wound(s) on Wrecker in R1T3
4 wound(s) on Bane in R3T3

Explosive Top Damage:
1 wound(s) on Animated Vine (kill) in R2T1
2 wound(s) on Animated Vine (kill, 1 excess) in R2T1
1 wound(s) on Poison Ivy in R2T1

Spinning Top Damage:
0 wound(s) on Animated Vines in R2T2

Obsessive Disorientation:
5 attack rolls, 2 blanks rolled

The game starts with a bang as Amanda Waller sends the troops out to confront the advancing Wrecking Crew. The Top gets the first wound in, hitting Wrecker, but then changes teams! Big advantage for the Crew. Poison Ivy gets her vines to lash out, but only hits Wrecker. The Top quickly brings the pain to the Animated Vines and Poison Ivy with an Explosive Top, but misses his follow-up Spinning Top the next turn. Bane goes ham on Piledriver and nearly kills him, but the backlash from Bulldozer across the map puts an end to Poison Ivy, saving Wrecker from death soon. Piledriver falls to Bane, but The Top swings by to smash him for 4 wounds. Bane returns the favor and slays The Top from low ground. Wrecker and Bulldozer have a great turn killing Amanda Waller, and Thunderball closes up shop.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? Bulldozer unwounded, Thunderball unwounded, Wrecker w/ 2 wounds.

_____________________________________________________________


Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Yes.
- What should be the unit's point value? 185 still feels good. Closer to 200 cold definitely happen.
- Give a brief overview. Despite the Doom patrol taking over this game after the first few rounds, The Top did wonders for the Rogues. Explosive Top was huge against the pod formatting of the Doom patrol, and Making The World Spin really boosts Captain Cold’s bonding potential. Spinning Top wasn’t used this game.
Map: Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh.
Units: The Top (190), Girder, Captain Cold, Heat Wave, Captain Boomerang I, Captain Boomerang II, and Weather Wizard (905) vs. Doctor Doom II, Doombot x2, Mad Thinker, Kristoff Von Doom, and Aaron Cash (905).

Spoiler Alert!

Normal Attack Damage:
None

Explosive Top Damage:
3 wound(s) on Aaron Cash (kill) in R2T1
3 wound(s) on Mad Thinker in R2T1
1 wound(s) on Doombot B in R2T1

Spinning Top Damage:
None

Obsessive Disorientation:
2 attacks, 1 blanks rolled

Round one is complete uneventful, with the Doom patrol moving up into a pod formation and the Rogues taking a potshot or two. Round two packs a ton of action, though, as The Top comes in for an Explosive Top that kills Aaron Cash and nearly kills Mad Thinker. Doctor Doom isn’t happy, so he slays Weather Wizard then takes control of Captain Boomerang I for a turn. The Top takes a hard hit toward the end of the round. Captain Cold tries to get some bonding with help from The Top but misses anyways. Doctor Doom gets super lucky against Captain Cold and really turns the tide in their favor, proceeding to kill The Top and Heat Wave in that round with a little help from his ward. The Rogues fight back when Girder and Owen come to party, but Kristoff survives the assault and Girder falls. Doctor Doom loses his powers, but Mad Thinker and the Doombots finish out the Rogues with ease.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? Doctor Doom w/ 1 wound and no powers, Doombot A unwounded, Doombot B w/ 1 wound, Mad Thinker w/ 3 wounds, Kristoff Von Doom w/ 3 wounds.

_____________________________________________________________


Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Yes.
- What should be the unit's point value? 185.
- Give a brief overview. The Top did quite well here again despite his teams losses. Pied Piper, Trickster, and Captain Cold are all excellent appreciators of Making The World Spin, and The Top sure can pack quite a punch with his versatile kit. The combo of Waller’s attack boost plus Making The World Spin is nasty, particularly combined with Captain Cold’s gun.
Map: Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh.
Units: The Top (175), Amanda Waller, Captain Cold, Trickster I, Mirror Master, Pied Piper, and Absorbing Man (1000) vs. Mister Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch I, and The Thing (1000).

Spoiler Alert!

Normal Attack Damage:
None

Explosive Top Damage:
None

Spinning Top Damage:
2 wound(s) on Invisible Woman (kill) in R2T1
0 wound(s) on Human Torch in R2T1
0 wound(s) on Human Torch in R2T2

Obsessive Disorientation:
6 attacks, 6 blanks rolled

In Round One, things get going super fast as Trickster gets the itch bomb onto Human Torch. The Fantastics move all around and slay Trickster after baiting the X, even getting some damage on Pied Piper. The Top moves up to disorient but can’t seem to give Pied Piper or Captain Cold enough of a boost yet. The Rogues kick in strong in Round Two as Pied Piper, Captain Cold, and The Top all string together turns to take out Invisible Woman. Meanwhile, Mister Fantastic branches off from his family to take down Amanda Waller in the start zone. Pied Piper also falls in the fray, and Mirror Master teleports way too far. The Top falls soon thereafter to Human Torch, then Mister Fantastic tackles Absorbing Man as the Rogues fly away in dust.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? Mister Fantastic unwounded, Human Torch w/ 3 wounds, and The Thing w/ 3 wounds.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: The Top provides a massive boost to the Rogues by being an aura that also has versatile attack options and fast movement. The fact of the matter is that the Rogues have low defense and struggle against meatier heroes, but The Top still proved he can make things happen in armies. Even without any other benefactors of Making The World Spin in Game 1, The Top dished out good damage. He belongs in the upper 100s and I wouldn’t be surprised to see an eek closer to 200 or even a bit above if he is played against weaker foes.


GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: I tried to see how much impact The Top would have against heavy hitters in these games. Turns out, it’s a fair bit. Going forward, I’m confident starting him at 185 into playtesting, and would like to see what happens in some games against armies with numerous low cost heroes.

Comments are included in full. I propose we move to Public Playtesting at 185 points.

@Arkham -
@Ronin -
@johnny139 -
@Yodaking -
@japes -
@Tornado -
@Spidey'tilIDie -

[japes]

Originally Posted by Scapemage

The Top provides a massive boost to the Rogues by being an aura that also has versatile attack options and fast movement. The fact of the matter is that the Rogues have low defense and struggle against meatier heroes, but The Top still proved he can make things happen in armies.

Ok, I may be way off and the only one thinking this but I won't feel better until I get it out...

Yes the Rogues have those weaknesses that you mentioned...I'm just unsure if the solution is to make a Rogue that overshadows all of them. I think there are ways to make the Rogues "work" that doesn't involve just creating stronger Rogues. I'm fine with the Rogues all being weaker individual units and think a little leadership like the current Captain Cold discussion can help that a bit. I think the solution is to make the team work better together.

That said, I really have no issue with the power set as is...maybe lower the defense to 5,so he doesn't climb to 200 and let him have his weakness...sure he can dish out some pain but let him work to stay around longer. Weather Wizard can already give him some protection from range.

[IAmBatman]

I mean, I have no problems with this guy being reflected as being as powerful as he is, which I think the current SP reflects. He's on a higher level than most rogues (and, honestly, usually works more independently of them).

I just hope he's costed based on his full potential, not just based on being played with less powerful Rogue armies.

[japes]

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I just didn't remember him being head and sholder's better than all of the rest. Most of the Rogues come in just under or just over 100 with the exception of Girder (which is the only hard hitter of the bunch so that makes sense). This guy reaching 200 (higher than Girder) Just seems odd to me.

The highest non Girder Rogues is what, 135ish? So 165 is still substantially better than the rest which I think is what I'd imagined. Now we are at 185 with the LD saying he could see him getting up to 200.

I hope he's costed correctly as well but my fear now thanks to your comment is that he's so much better and if he is costed based on a non Rogue army that he'd be useless in his thematic army.

That's all I'm saying. If the Rogue army is weak (which we all agree) the key is to make the Army better...which I think we are attempting to do with the other design.

I think his MTWS power will help the lower Attack Rogues a lot.

If he truly is that much better than any two rogues combined then so be it...I'm wrong. I'm just questioning it.

Also sorry I didn't speak up louder earlier. I hinted at it and then just stepped back.

[Scapemage]

Originally Posted by japes

Ok, I may be way off and the only one thinking this but I won't feel better until I get it out...

Yes the Rogues have those weaknesses that you mentioned...I'm just unsure if the solution is to make a Rogue that overshadows all of them. I think there are ways to make the Rogues "work" that doesn't involve just creating stronger Rogues. I'm fine with the Rogues all being weaker individual units and think a little leadership like the current Captain Cold discussion can help that a bit. I think the solution is to make the team work better together.

That said, I really have no issue with the power set as is...maybe lower the defense to 5,so he doesn't climb to 200 and let him have his weakness...sure he can dish out some pain but let him work to stay around longer. Weather Wizard can already give him some protection from range.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I mean, I have no problems with this guy being reflected as being as powerful as he is, which I think the current SP reflects. He's on a higher level than most rogues (and, honestly, usually works more independently of them).

I just hope he's costed based on his full potential, not just based on being played with less powerful Rogue armies.

I think that dok's insight about moving Disorientation away from all figures due to its power and making it Rogue specific helps the faction a ton. The Top still functions with the full effects of Making The World Spin without any other Rogues in the army, so he doesn't necessarily need to be played in a Rogue army to be effective.


That being said, I don't think that The Top overshadows all the other Rogues in an army. Yes, he is one of the most powerful (currently batting around Girder levels), but that is thematic since he is one of the few Rogues with actual powers. In my games, I found that once The Top got into position, he didn't take any more turns than the other Rogues. Every Rogue has something they're good at, and while some don't require as many turns as others (like Trickster I, for example), the variety of Special Attacks and other powers means that Captain Cold will be choosing different Rogues to fit the moment if the army is advanced well.


In the games with Amanda Waller, I found myself picking at least once every Rogue in the army, and kept bouncing around depending on the position and special attacks present on the card I needed in the moment. The Top helps make each Rogue more effective, but he comes at a high price point, so it's no freebie boost.


I also heavily agree with Bats that this guy should be batting higher than everyone else. He works as a Rogue a fair amount, but also has his fair share of one-on-one bouts with The Flash where he keeps up. He should definitely be costed with his general effectiveness in mind. I suspect the right combo of Rogues would be that ideal scenario, but games with Waller might prove to be, or another army I'm not thinking of.

[Yodaking]

I'd like to see more tests so yea. The biggest point of the initial is to make sure the mechanics are working out in a positive way, give us some kind of idea of where the final point total may be, and make adjustment if the unit is coming in too strong or too weak. Sounds like the LD is happy with the mechanics of the card and I'm seeing 3 not very close losses so I wouldn't think he needs a nerf. I would like to see if the public testers can come up with some creative ways to maximize what he does without going with an all Rogue army or using Waller, as neither one is a particularly strong competitive builds so when they lose it's not shocking. If one of the heroes or sidekicks does want to run another Waller test then at least bring Rick Flag Jr. along.

[Ronin]

yea

Not seeing anything alarming here. Definitely would be curious about Waller + Flag tests.

[Arkham]

Yea

[japes]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I'd like to see more tests so yea. The biggest point of the initial is to make sure the mechanics are working out in a positive way, give us some kind of idea of where the final point total may be, and make adjustment if the unit is coming in too strong or too weak. Sounds like the LD is happy with the mechanics of the card and I'm seeing 3 not very close losses so I wouldn't think he needs a nerf. I would like to see if the public testers can come up with some creative ways to maximize what he does without going with an all Rogue army or using Waller, as neither one is a particularly strong competitive builds so when they lose it's not shocking. If one of the heroes or sidekicks does want to run another Waller test then at least bring Rick Flag Jr. along.

Originally Posted by Ronin

yea

Not seeing anything alarming here. Definitely would be curious about Waller + Flag tests.

Just in case you are missing my point...yeah, I don't see anything alarming for a 185-200 point figure. And yes, I know what Initial testing is for. I'm just asking if that truly is where he belongs. If he really is that strong then ok...I just don't see him in the Girder range.

Not only that every list I can find of Flashes Rogues ranked by power has him way down the list...and even points out how many times he's been killed. Including by Captain Cold.

[Yodaking]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing us do a 2.0 of several of the Rogues like Arkham has been doing for the Gotham criminals, bringing them up some in power level. So a higher point Top doesn't bother me. I want to do that Capt. Cold II, and I'd be okay if we did a Heatwave II that hit a little harder that the current design does. If they both come in the 160-190 point range, then a 170-185 point Top doesn't sound that crazy.

[johnny139]

I get what japes is saying here - currently this guy is reading to me as "the biggest, baddest Rogue" and I've never really heard of him before. Guys like Captain Cold and Heatwave always seemed like bigger fish.

If that's a good fit for the character it's obviously no problem but I do think we should be sure he's a good fit in a vacuum as well as in the larger context of the faction he's boosting.