Which comes first, Scatter or rat death?

[nyys]

Originally Posted by Revdyer

The point I would offer is that we, in fact, do have to apply a certain amount of normal logic or common sense to these rules. If you went, strictly, with the "move any 2 rats" rule in a tournament setting, you could say you were allowed to move two of your oppoent's rats or two in some other person's game. This would, obviously, be stupid as an interpretation of the rules. Ordinary logic should outweigh strained interpretations.

...or two of your dead rats back onto the board. ...or send one to get you a drink. ...or

[Grungebob]

1) The rat is first killed and removed from the board
2) Then you scatter with 2 other rats

[Revdyer]

Grungebob speaks AND he's wearing his GenCon war-bonnet. That settles it. (And so wanted to be able to send a rat off to get me a drink. <sigh>)

[Snotwalker 8000]

The fact that this is still being debated just amazes me.

The only reason that "dice rolling" and "wounding" are specifically mentioned is to provide the background logic as to why scatter goes before cover fire. since rolling dice takes place before wounds are applied, scatter takes place before cover fire... it's really just that simple. The rationale behind the sequencing ruling was included. That's all.

Now that being said, I really believe we should all start petitioning WotC to create a Robotic Chicken Squad that actually includes a "running around like a chicken with it's head cut off" special power... It could make for a great 10 point filler squad.

SW8K

[MKSentinel]

It's being debated because of the ruling of the FAQ:
Cover Fire activates after inflicting a wound on an opponent’s figure. How does that interact with powers like the Deathreaver’s Scatter, or on powers that allow figures to ignore wounds?
Scatter activates after rolling defense dice, Cover Fire activates after inflicting the wound (after attack/defense dice are counted). Scatter activates first, then Cover Fire. If a special power allows the wound(s) Skahen inflicted to be ignored, Cover Fire would not activate.

IN ORDER FOR SCATTER TO ACTIVATE BEFORE COVER FIRE THE MOVE HAS TO TAKE PLACE BEFORE THE MOVE HAPPENS. All caps added for emphasis, not shouting. I am fine with Grungebob's statement on the way it should play out, but it contradicts the OTHER FAQ ruling regarding the rats.

This is not a silly pointless debate. Both FAQ rulings need to be worded to compliment rather than contradict.

Under this:

Originally Posted by Grungebob

1) The rat is first killed and removed from the board
2) Then you scatter with 2 other rats

This would mean DAMAGE resolves before the movement and Skahens ability states that it triggers if she inflicts a wound. SO, once ONE happens above, Skahen would interrupt and activate before 2. BUT, according to the FAQ that is not the case.

See where I am coming from?
MKS

[Snotwalker 8000]

Hey MKS, I see where you're coming from, but I was simply amazed at the tenacity shown by some to keep arguing that dead rats can run.

And again, when I first read the ruling, it seemed obvious to me that the wording was simply for pointing out WHY scatter goes before cover fire.... because rolling (trigger in scatter) takes place before wounds (trigger in cover fire)... but it doesn't supercede the basic game rule that wounds are applied immediately after rolling. The ruling provided the rationale, not a new game mechanic regarding wound application.

That's all. Well, that and I now have this irrational fear of headless rats scampering all over the battlefield... I now need to create custom chairs for my figures to jump on and scream like girls when the dead rats come scattering by.

When Grungebob quotes Snotwalker, that settles it.

SW8K

[Hogg]

Originally Posted by Snotwalker 8000

Well, that and I now have this irrational fear of headless rats scampering all over the battlefield... I now need to create custom chairs for my figures to jump on and scream like girls when the dead rats come scattering by.

SW8K

Do they need to be robotic chairs since they are robotic rats?

[GaryLASQ]

Originally Posted by LongHeroscaper

They are still worth more than 40 points, but not as much as before. This "new" interpretation certainly reduces Rats ability a bit, I do not think very much though.

I was just kidding for the most part. I would never question the point value of an official character. No sir, not me.

Wasting one of the two scatters just to get the dying rat off the glyph (or out of the way for some other reason) before moving a live rat back on the glyph, and then removing the finally dead rat, seems ugly.

Imagine a capture-the-flag like scenario, or one where you have to get a figure to some location in order to win. Your opponent attacks your rat that is getting close to this location and thinks he's destroyed it just in time. Ha! Not so fast ... you move the wounded rat to the goal and win, just as the rat takes its last dying mechanical breath.

Edit: If it's ruled that a dying rat can scatter (isn't removed until after any 2 have scattered), then I'm OK with that.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by Snotwalker 8000

Hey MKS, I see where you're coming from, but I was simply amazed at the tenacity shown by some to keep arguing that dead rats can run.

For what it's worth, I do not think that the designers originally intended dead rats to run... then wrote an unclear Deathreavers card that had us all playing the wrong way... then corrected a friendly-fire mistake on that card, still leaving it unclear... then a couple years later casually made a murky reference to the right way to play the rats in a FAQ entry about Agent Skahen. Sir Dupuis and the WotC rules guys have been conscientious enough that I trust them to have corrected such a widespread mistake earlier and better than this. It seems like a very long shot.

HOWEVER! It's our job to play the rules as written, not to figure out what the designers were thinking and play that game instead of the one that's on the cards. If the FAQ entry really does say that dead rats can run, then dead rats can run until the actual game rules are officially changed, regardless of what was in the mind of the person writing the entry.

While I'm sitting here at my computer with no game in progress, it seems very reasonable to just say, "Oh, the FAQ guys didn't mean dead rats can run, so let's just skip it." But at a tournament? I quote a rule to someone and he comes back with "Oh, they didn't mean it?" No way! No way in the world would I accept that authorial-intent handwaving from an opponent in competition!

It needs to be clear as written.

[LongHeroscaper]

rdhight, that is exactly my thought. Thanks!
Well, if an arrow can be shot as far as a bullet, or if a dragon can fly as high as it wants, or a person can always see and shoot his target no matter how HIGH he is, then a dead rat can run! Snotwalker, bring it on!

[MKSentinel]

Originally Posted by Snotwalker 8000

And again, when I first read the ruling, it seemed obvious to me that the wording was simply for pointing out WHY scatter goes before cover fire.... because rolling (trigger in scatter) takes place before wounds (trigger in cover fire)... but it doesn't supercede the basic game rule that wounds are applied immediately after rolling. The ruling provided the rationale, not a new game mechanic regarding wound application.

How immediately? More immediately than moving after rolling with scatter? And how immediately does Skahen's ability work after damage? It's a loophole that definitely needs to be shut down. Mage Knight had a similar problem with Magic Levitation that led to Ram Gun and Yo-Yo that was eventually FIXED to fit with the initial intent of the ability. That was all based on the wording "At the beginning of your turn".

I for one don't care as to the final resolution on this so far as it makes sense...and even if it doesn't, who am I to impose my will on the powers that be.

Originally Posted by LongHeroscaper

rdhight, that is exactly my thought. Thanks!
Well, if an arrow can be shot as far as a bullet, or if a dragon can fly as high as it wants, or a person can always see and shoot his target no matter how HIGH he is, then a dead rat can run! Snotwalker, bring it on!

Don't forget that you aren't considered to be flying when you aren't moving...so it's really more like JUMPING mechanic-wise. And as quoted over at BGG you can kill a guy by shooting his coat.

[Grungebob]

When a figure makes an attack, you conduct that attack first including all effects that relate to the attacking figure and target figure(s). This all happens before the cover fire kicks in.

Example: Agent Skahen shoots at an enemy Microcorp Agent and causes a wound. You don't imediately move a friendly Tricky figure, you finish the attack first and that means finding out if the Microcorp actually received any damage. You already rolled defense dice but there's a little extra trick in there with the stealth suit that needs to be handled first before Skahens tricky flunkies do their thing.

It is the same with Scatter. Basically scatter and other abilities that relate to the actual figures involved in the attack take precedence over abilities that are involved but apply to figures that are not part of the attack.

I hope I have explained this adequately. I'm just coming off of a 12 hr shift.

Oh and by the way.. Dead rats cannot run. they do not run around hopping on other glyphs, triggering effects etc..