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One of you has not yet signed up to play. Do not identify yourself in this thread! Just either (1) register on the judge and sign up for the game, or (2) shoot me a PM telling me the trouble.
Thanks!
The game has started! Good luck everyone!
For those who are new to the game, I would highly recommend that you watch a couple of Youtube videos on how to play.
Here is also a strategy site that gives you insight on how to play each country. (I have copied and pasted the general country introductions by Richard Hucknall in the spoilers below.)
An Introduction to Austrian Opening Strategy by Richard Hucknall
Spoiler Alert!
Austria is by far the most vulnerable country on the board. All too often it is subject to attacks from Italy, Russia and Turkey and therefore is regularly eliminated in 1902/03. Consequently the prime requisite for the Austrian player at the gamestart is to get a genuine alliance with at least one of these countries which will enable him to get a share of the Balkan supply centres.
In my view, the ideal Austrian opening is F(Tri)-Alb, A(Bud)-Ser and A(Vie) to either Tri or Bud. This requires sure fire certainty that he will not be attacked by Russia or Italy. For working purposes an attack by Germany can be disregarded. Assuming Italy and Russia don’t attack then Austria should have Serbia and Greece for two builds in the autumn and will thus be able to wield a strong influence on the Balkans. Furthermore, he does not need to antagonise Russia or Turkey until 1902. Unfortunately both Russia and Turkey usually view Austria as very easy meat and so this ideal opening is often difficult to arrange.
If an attack from Italy is feared, Austria has several methods of defence. F(Tri)-Ven (or stands) will halt any direct move from yen to Tri but will almost certainly mean that Gre will not be taken in the autumn. The other defence is A(Vie)-Tyr (or Tri) while the fleet moves to Alb. Here the Austrian player is using guesswork as to whether Italy will order A(Ven)-Tyr or Tri. If he guesses correctly then Italy is stopped dead in his tracks but if he, is wrong then he is in dire trouble. If Russia is to attack then this will invariably be through Galicia, and though he can easily be stood off by either of the Austrian armies it means that Austria may have to settle for only one build in the autumn. Should both Italy and Russia attack then Austria has real problems.
However, no problem is unsurmountable and with clever diplomacy an Austria can wriggle out of an intended Italy/Russia attack. Italy can be bribed with the promise of Gre in 1902 on the understanding that he doesn’t go for Tn or Tyr in 1901. Whether the Austrian player keeps this promise is up to him. Another ploy is to offer the Italian the facility of playing the Key Lepanto (A(Ven)-Tri in Spring followed by A(Tri)-Ser in Autumn> and if the offer is accepted, then at least the Austrian knows where A(Ven) is going and has two choices. He can grit his teeth and hope that Italy plays the white man and vacates Tri in the autumn, or he can simply order A(Vie)-Tri in Spring 1901 thus safeguarding his position and keeping the Italians out! Russia is a different proposition though and perhaps the best way of keeping him out is to ask the Germans for help. Since Germany will not want a strong Russia due to a weak Austria he can be asked to warn Russia that if he moves A(War)-Gal in Spring 1901 then Germany will stand his fleet out of Swe in autumn. Dare Russia risk a 50% chance of a gain from Austria against the loss of gaining Sweden in the autumn and angering Germany in the process?
Should Austria be in the fortunate position of being wooed by both Russia and Turkey for an alliance against the other, he has a difficult decision. An alliance with Russia will usually be successful but once Turkey is dead, the Austrian may find himself surrounded by Russian units. The ability to restrict Russian fleets from passing through the Con/Bul area by diplomacy is necessary. An alliance with Turkey against Russia can also be successful but here the problem is that once Russia has been defeated in the south, Austria will have to move north leaving his back exposed for a tempting stab by Turkey.
The standard Lepanto opening - Italy convoying A(Tun) to either Smy or Syr via F(ION) & F(EMS) - is of course good from the Austrian point of view. It ties up all of Italy’s units except the army guarding Ven ~nd enables Austria to keep his Options open regarding alliances with Italy or Turkey until 1902. Should Italy want to use the Key Lepanto, this requires nerves of steel and it is not recommended unless the Austrian is absolutely SURE that Italy will not double-cross him. Austria’s crucial year is 1901. After these two seasons he knows whether he is in for an early bath.
An Introduction to English Opening Strategy by Richard Hucknall
Spoiler Alert!
England is in the unique position of starting the game with more fleets than armies, and it is this factor that is his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. The island corner position means that English home centres will be easy to defend and her two fleets have command of the northern seas until at least 1902 when an alliance between her two immediate neighbours is essential to challenge her superiority. However his glaring weakness is his single army. To win England must at some point in the game make a serious invasion of the mainland and it is this that should govern his strategy.
There is only one possible opening move that guarantees England a build against all possible opposition and that is F(Edi)-NWG, F(Lon)-NTH and A(Lpl)-Yor. With this opening he can take Norway in the Autumn even in the face of Russian opposition from StP and still be able to defend London should the French have moved into the English Channel in the Spring. However if ENG has been left unoccupied then England has the choice of how to take Norway (F or A) and there is also the possibility of a convoy to Del, Hol or Den. Basically there is only one choice to make for the English player and that is whether to go for ENG or not. Admittedly there are variations caused by the move of A(Lpl), but these are not very involved.
Despite the limitations of opening moves, England must conduct a lot of diplomacy prior to the first moves based on how he wants the game to develop in the middle game and where he hopes to launch his first land offensive. Belgium is often the focal point of the diplomacy and this centre can be used to stir up trouble between France and Germany to his own advantage. I have even seen an English army convoyed to Belgium and supported by both France and Germany. This is very amusing if it can be engineered but lays open the danger that France and Germany may object to being made fools of and ally against England. Sometimes there is an advantage in not appearing to be too clever.
Unlike Belgium, Norway is generally accepted as England’s automatic gain in Autumn 1901 and it is a brave Russian who contests this, but the manner in which Norway is gained is of prime importance. An English fleet in Norway is not really aggressive from a Russian point of view as England soon finds himself in a cul-de-sac if he tries to attack Russia with fleets only. StP if he is lucky, then full stop. But an army in Scandinavia tends to precipitate an Anglo-Russian war.
Scandinavia usually seems to produce a Russia/England/Germany triangle. Properly managed, England can play the other two off against each other to his own advantage but must be aware of the possibility of a stab by France while he is committed in this area. All two often France plays a fleet into IRI or NAO in 1902/03 while England has only F(NTH) to defend his homeland and this is often fatal.
Should England be attacked by both France and Germany she is in trouble. Nevertheless he is often able to stick around for a long period by a policy of “Hide & Seek” around the British Isles. An alliance with Russia makes the Franco-German alliance even more difficult to press home and there is also the possibility that either Austria or Italy can be persuaded to attack your enemies.
When it comes to the question of alliances for England an alliance with France can usually see off Germany, but this is often where the problems begin. The alliance can be difficult to maintain in the middle game unless England has made a successful land invasion against either Russia or Germany and even then he is in danger of that French move to the Irish Sea. All too often an Anglo-French war begins. My personal preference is for an alliance with Germany whereby England gives assistance against Russia and Germany reciprocates by helping against France. The exchange of Bel for Swe in 1903/04 means that the North sea can be neutralised and both powers have separate, non-conflicting areas for expansion.
To my mind, England is not the most interesting country to play. However, the actions of the English fleets in 1901/02 often have far-reaching and long-lasting effects and can determine the pattern of alliances over the whole board. It is an achievement if this naval advantage can be used to reach the magical 18 centres.
An Introduction to French Opening Strategy by Richard Hucknall
Spoiler Alert!
No doubt I am an exception, but France is the country I like playing least of all. L don’t know why this should be so, as it has a good track record for postal wins and has the best record for draws. However when I see the French opening set up it fails to fire me with the interest that both Austria and Russia seem to generate.
The big advantage for France is the proximity of three neutral supply centres; two of them (Por and Spa) usually there for the taking in Autumn 1901. Thus it is no surprise that most Frances have 5 centres at the end of the first year. The ‘cushion of Iberia’ was how Nicky Palmer described it in his article ‘The Northern Dash’ although this article was based on the idea that France can afford to ignore Spa and Por in 1901 and pick them up again at his leisure. The two centres can be taken in a variety of non-aggressive ways but should England, Germany or Italy attack in the opening year then France can defend fairly well but will have to be content with one gain from Iberia. An attack by two or more of these countries is usually disastrous and France is left to play a rearguard action.
The major diplomatic effort at the gamestart is usually to forge an alliance with either England or Germany against the other. Better still ally with both and play them off against each other —the talent of a top player. Personally, I prefer the German alliance as the sight of numerous English fleets to the north always makes me nervous. Should England be eliminated then France and Germany have separate areas for expansion without having to come to blows, but an Anglo-French alliance eliminating Germany means France must attack Italy next (difficult) or stab his former English ally. If he goes against Italy then the English may land fleets in Brest and armies in France.
As discussed in other articles, Belgium is the major 1901 focal point and France has a very big say in who finally takes this centre. This can help him dictate the pattern of play in the early game. The most sensitive areas for France are ENG, Bur and Pie. Germany has no reason to go for Bur unless he supports an attack on France or wants to attack France himself. Should he be adamant that he should take Bel the he can go to Hol and Ruh, giving a good chance for Bel in the autumn without threatening French centres. However, a pre-arranged stand off in Bur can be a good thing. Germany is often happy to keep A(Mun) where it is in case Austria, Russia or Italy move against him and this can be arranged by a Bur stand off. France has the choice of A(Par) or A(Mar) to bounce the German A(Mun) back. I prefer A(Mar) as then in the Autumn it can be used to defend against an Italian attack or take Spain. I believe this stand of f can go a long way to cementing a French/German alliance.
A move to ENG by either England or France can be construed as aggressive unless you have sufficient diplomatic skills to persuade your neighbour otherwise, but unlike the Bur stand off, there seems to be little point in arranging a stand off in ENG as fleets in Bre and Lon will be of little use for Autumn 1901 moves and may just result in another stand off with vital supply centres blocked for builds.
Piedmont is perhaps the most interesting of the three. Although it is only of minor importance in 1901 it often becomes vital in the middle and end game, being the only land province between the Med and the Alps. Normally, it can be neutralised in 1901 as France is more concerned with Germany and England whilst Italy is concerned with Austria, Turkey and Russia and his southern expansion. From the French point of view, Mar can still be defended quite comfortably even if Italy has moved to Pie in Spring 1901, although it may mean a delay in taking one of the Iberian centres. A useful ploy in this situation is to tell Italy that you will defend Mar from his A(Pie) (assuming Mar is vacant) by a stand off and will then build F(Mar). This can be a sufficient deterrent to send A(Pie) back where it came from although your A(Mar) will also be back where it started. Pie has another peculiarity in that there is only one exit on the French side but three on the Italian side. A French army in Pie can be pushed into Tyr, yen or Tus. This can be a back-door attack on Germany but requires trust and. secrecy on Italy’s part and cannot come to fruition until 1902. The advantage is that it can be easy to convince Germany that your A(Pie) is Italy bound.
Generally, most games begin with non-aggression pacts between France and Italy. Occasionally one sees attacks in 1901 but usually they agree to keep GOL, WMS, NAf and Pie vacant and there are strict agreements about fleets in TYS and Spa.sc. A common request is that France does not build F(Mar). I often smile at this as a F(Bre) can move to WMS just as quickly as a F(Mar) could. If you build in Bre to lull the Italian into a false sense of security, then move to MAO (promising an attack on IRI) the fleet can be thrust into WMS with a build of F(Mar) to complement it. Then Italy is in trouble!
An Introduction to German Opening Strategy by Richard Hucknall
Spoiler Alert!
Germany is the third member of the Northern Trio (together with France and England) and as mentioned earlier Germany usually tries for an alliance with one of these against the other, always hoping that they do not ally together and attack him. Three neutral centres are available in 1901 - Bel, Hol and Den - and occasionally Germany occupies all three of them. Depending on the quality of the Opposition this can either be a good or a bad thing! A six unit Germany in 1901 can often scare the other two countries into an alliance of necessity against the Hun.
The Belgian situation has already been discussed in articles on England and France - Bel being the key to a lot of diplomacy at the gamestart. Den and Hol are normally regarded as German centres and only England is in a position to prevent Germany from taking them by direct action in Autuma 1901. One of Germany’s prime decisions in the time leading up to Spring 1901 is to decide the destination of his fleet. The obvious moves are to Den or Hol, any others being rather misguided. Both will of course succeed but the main factor is the importance of the unit in the autumn moves. A F(Den) can be a powerful bargaining piece and can be used to influence the Russian moves. Russia can be stood out of Sweden if Germany wishes and so he can arrange matters to suit himself. In my opinion a move to Hol is not so beneficial unless Germany desperately wants Bel and is prepared not to gain Denmark. Then F(Hol) can support an attack on Bel from Ruh/Bur although there is the risk that the English will stand him out of Den from NTH.
Once again Scandinavia is of major importance. It is not so vital that it is German, but it is necessary to be occupied by a friend of Germany. In 1902 Germany often finds himself in an E/R/G triangle in the area, giving plenty of scope for diplomacy.
Although Russia is not a threat in 1901, if he is successful in the south (where he normally concentrates in the early years) he will sooner or later get involved in the North. Germany tied up with a war against England and France is an easy target for a knife in the back and this happens all too often. It is easy to pacify Russia in 1901, but once bolstered by gains in Turkey and the Balkans, German must be wary of him. If Germany is attacked by Russia at this stage he must get some help from a friendly England, France or Italy, otherwise he will soon be dead. In this position he is likely to be the last bastion against a Russian win unless there has been a counter-attack in the south, but all too often the northern survivors fail to realise the danger and are unable to forget their quarrels and unite against a common enemy.
Because of this very real danger from Russia, a good policy at the gamestart is to ally with Austria. Should Austria be attacked in Spring 1901 by Russia then Germany stands him out of Sweden and sends at least one unit east in 1902. If Austria and Russia ally to take out Turkey in 1901/02 then it is important that Austria is encouraged to join Germany in attacking Russia when Turkey is dead. Otherwise Germany needs a very strong alliance with Italy and help from England. In previous articles I have mentioned that I thought the best northern alliance for both England and France was Germany. Consequently he can expect to be wooed by both of them - an enviable position! There is a lot to be said for an alliance with either country, but on balance I favour the French alliance.
Germany is an interesting country to play and has a good record of wins. Played properly it can be guided to win, but if the Russian ogre is allowed to grow too rapidly then Germany is an early casualty.
An Introduction to Italian Opening Strategy by Richard Hucknall
Spoiler Alert!
Ask a cross-section of hobby members which country they least like to play and the answer would probably be Italy. Why is this? Ok so Italy has the worst record of wins; but the reason must be the lack of scope for expansion. The only obvious advantage is that it is the easiest country, to defend at the start and does not have any obvious predators.
The immediate neighbours are usually eager for non-aggression. France has its eyes on Iberia and the Low countries while Austria lives in fear of Russia and Turkey, looking longingly at the Balkan centres. Moves against Italy in 1901 are uncommon and seldom dangerous. Often they are reactions by France and Austria to suspected Italian aggression. Assuming that Italy is unlikely to be attacked in 1901, what is the best policy?
An all-out attack on France is silly. A(Ven) may get to Pie, but it takes too long to get within striking distance of Mar and Iberia with the fleet, especially as Tunis must be taken for a build. By this time France is alerted and can build and move accordingly. Furthermore, Austria or Turkey may grow rapidly at the start and begin to move towards Italy. The one occasion when an early attack on France can be expected to pay dividends is if you know that England and Germany are also planning a joint invasion in the north. Then, with France’s defences widely stretched quick rewards can be achieved with Mar and Spa almost certain gains.
An attack on Austria can be beneficial especially if Russia is ready to assist from the rear. A(Ven) can be sent to either Tyr or Tri while A(Rom) follows up into yen. If the moves are successful then Italy is in a strong position but if they have been anticipated he is left with two armies that cannot effectively combine. Another choice is to move to Pie and yen and attack no-one! With a fleet build for the gain of Tun, just sit back and await developments. Although it seems unattractive policy it does have the advantage of keeping on friendly terms with everyone until it is clear exactly what you are going to do. Offers of alliance are bound to arrive in a position like this.
One cannot discuss Italian opening strategy without mentioning the Lepanto Opening. This involves F(ION) convoying A(Apu) to Tun in 1901 then building a F(Nap) and moving F(ION)-EMS, F(Nap)-ION in Spring 1902 followed by the possibility of the convoy to Smy/Syr in Autumn 1902. The idea is to attack Turkey with Austrian help but the key to the move is the action of the Turkish F(Ank) in Spring 1901. If it goes to Con in the first move, it is likely to go to AEG in the next season and may be able to disrupt the convoy, particularly with a F(Smy) built in Autumn 1901. There is a variation called the Key Lepanto which requires great trust on Austria’s part. The basic idea remains the same but Austria allows A(Ven)-Tri in Spring 1901 on the proviso that it moves to Ser or Alb in the Autum. The advantage is that it appears to be a stab on Austria, especially if he screams loudly enough, but invariably Italy double-crosses Austria and orders the army in Tri to Bud or Vie resulting with five or six units at the beginning of Spring 1902. the big disadvantage with the Lepanto openings is that while Italy is mucking about in the east, France can be pushing two fleets into the Med which can bring all the Italians plans to naught.
On the question of alliances I would consider the Italian/Russian alliance to be one of the strongest on the board. Unless Austria is very astute (or lucky) in the face of a co-ordinated Spring 1901 attack from these two countries they can divide up all of Austria, then the Balkans and finally Turkey, assuming they have no trouble on other borders to deal with. An alliance with Austria can also be very strong but more trust than normal is needed as these countries are in the unique position of having adjacent home supply centres. A Turkish alliance invariably leads to conflict in the middle game unless they have carefully arranged, separate areas of expansion and builds agreed. Don’t write Italy off. You’ll probably survive longer than some countries.
An Introduction to Russian Opening Strategy by Richard Hucknall
Spoiler Alert!
This is the country with the best win record and consequently is the most popular to play. Although I have won both my games as Russia I still rate is second to Austria on my personal preference list.
If you draw Russia and want to do well, you must be prepared to diplome harder than you would with any other country. The reason for this is that Russia occupies about one third of the board (in area) and has four neighbours in direct opposition, not to mention having one more unit than anyone else at the start. Furthermore, the opening moves of France and Italy can have repercussions on Russian strategy. Although he starts the game with an extra unit, this is not such an advantage as Russia can be crushed easily by concerted action from his neighbours. My belief is that Russia’s best policy at the start is to fan the sparks of mistrust that exist between other countries until they flare up into war. He can then grind slowly westwards, picking up centres as the rest fight amongst themselves.
The first decision to make is whether to send the A(Mos) to StP or to be content with a lone fleet operating in the north. Should A(Mos) go north, this is usually an anti-English move and threatens to keep him out of Norway. To do this, Russia must be fairly sure that he will not be attacked in the south and that Rum will not be contested. He will also need some understanding with Germany that Sweden will not be a stand-off in the autumn. Given these circumstances then a move to StP can be beneficial - but if he has miscalculated then the results, especially if he fails to take Rum and/or Swe, will leave him very weak. Goodwill towards Germany in 1901 is essential otherwise he can be stood out of Sweden as Germany often uses this ploy as a lever in his negotiations with Russia.
Norway is often looked upon as England’s automatic gain in Autumn 1901. Russia doesn’t have to contest this but the manner in which it is taken is important. An English fleet in Norway cannot be construed as dangerous unless accompanied by a fleet in BAR, but an army convoyed to Norway can be very dangerous. The fleet, should it attack in 1902, cannot get any further than StP, but the army has the chance to roam southwards through Liv, Fin, Mos. In both my postal games as Russia, I persuaded England to let me have Norway in return for assistance against Germany. This proved to be a good strategy as it gave me a solid base in Scandinavia and the bonus of an undefended Berlin later in the game. It also enabled me to concentrate more in the south.
Naturally, Russia is usually more interested in the south than in the north in 1901 and the key area here must be BLA. The most fearful thing that can happen is for Turkey to move into BLA and Arm and this must be avoided if Russia is to prosper. Unless he can be certain (and that is rare in Diplomacy) that Turkey will not go to BLA, he must defend by ordering there himself. A good policy is to arrange a stand-off in BLA in Spring 1901 and then to order F(Sev)-Rum in the Autumn with support from Ukr or Gal if necessary. Conditional builds can then be made on the basis that if Turkey has gone to BLA a fleet is raised in Sev. This can be effective if Turkey is told about the conditional builds.
Unlike all other powers, Russia has involvement in both north and south in 1901. The south is initially more important but gains in the area can be used to build units and bolster the weaker positions in the north. To be successful in the south an ally is needed and Russia has at her disposal two of the best alliances on the board, Turkey and Italy. The Turkish alliance is ideal - the Balkans and Austria can be swiftly divided, followed by Turkey moving against Italy and Russia concentrating in the north against England or Germany. The Italian alliance has the advantage that the two countries do not come into contact until the end (or middle) game so only minimal trust is required. Yet again it is Austria that is first for the chop, then the Balkans, and finally a surrounded and outnumbered Turkey. The third alternative - the Austrian alliance - can quickly snuff out Turkey but leaves Russia open to a stab by Austria.
In the North, Russia has to tread warily until he is strong enough to mount a land war against Germany or a sea war against England. Perhaps the worst thing for Russia is an England/Germany alliance. Not only will this hamper him in Scandinavia but will hinder the growth of Russia’s natural ally in the north - France.
Enjoy yourself playing Russia - statistics are on your side.
An Introduction to Turkish Opening Strategy by Richard Hucknall
Spoiler Alert!
Like England, Turkey has a corner position on the board, and this has both advantages and disadvantages. It is difficult for Turkey to be winkled out if he is forced on the defensive, but it is also difficult for him to break out of his corner position, which he must do if he hopes to have any chance of getting to eighteen supply centres.
Perhaps Turkish opening moves require less diplomacy than any other country. A(Con) should always go to Bul and has done so in most recorded games. F(Ank) should always go to BLA unless Turkey is certain that Russia will not move there. Neither Russia nor Turkey can afford to let the other into BLA so a pre-arranged stand-off there is probably the best option. This just leaves A(Smy).
It is the action of A(Smy) that gives Turkey the most food for thought. The only real choice is between moving to Arm or Con. The move to Arm is arguably the best as Turkey wins most of his postal games following this opening. It immediately puts pressure on Russia even assuming there has been a stand of f over BLA. In the autumn, Russia will be looking to take Rum and if his F(Sev) is to be used to support an attack from Ukr or Gal, the A(Arm) can cut this support. Furthermore, Turkey would almost certainly take BLA unopposed. Should Russia elect to support his F(Sev)-Rum then he will need to tie up another unit - A(Mos) or A(Ukr) - to stand off the Turkish move A(Arm)-Sev. Indeed Turkey may, in fact, just stand in Arm and Russia may find that Sev is not open for a build and thus would not be able to build the second fleet necessary to evict the Turkish F(BLA).
The move A(Smy)-Con is, of course, the best back-up for the move A(Con)-Bul. With this move Turkey is hoping to pick up a second build by moving A(Bul) on to Gre or Rum or even Ser in the autumn. Gre is often available as Italy should not risk a stand-off over Gre at the expense of taking Tunis. Also Austria is often committed to defend against Italy or Russia allowing Turkey to take Gre. Rum can sometimes be taken, but this may require Austrian support.
Perhaps Turkey’s best ally is Russia. Between them they can take the Balkans and Austria leaving separate routes for expansion so that Turkey takes Italy while Russia goes north. However, a solution must be found for Russia’s southern fleet which must either rust in its Rum or Sev anchorage or be shepherded through Con in a Spring season - a tactic requiring a good deal of trust -if the alliance is to prosper. The big danger is that once Austria is defeated then Russia and Italy will have Turkey surrounded and may launch a joint attack. An alliance with Austria has the advantage that when Russia is no longer a threat in the south, Austria may move north and is open to a stab from Turkey as and when he feels fit. An alliance with Italy may be useful may be useful particularly to eliminate Austria. But once this has been accomplished then Italy has to be persuaded to move against France or conflict between Italy and Turkey is inevitable.
Turkey is not the best country to play and it is imperative he breaks out of his homeland fairly quickly if he is to have any great impact on the game. My own ambition as Turkey, is to launch a pincer attack on Russia by arranging a convoy of A(Smy)-StP! Actually, the sheer pleasure that such a move would give would outweigh the pleasure of winning a game!
Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!
You all can put in moves, if you want, and "set wait" to keep the turn from processing until the deadline. That way, you have time to continue negotiating and maybe change your mind, but there is no danger of the deadline sneaking up on you with nothing ordered.
Hearty congratulations to England and France, for their participation in a 2-way draw to conclude the game.
I encourage you all to share your "EOG" - end of game - statements right here in this thread. I won't out anybody; I'll leave that to you all to do for yourselves.