Every Scaper Oughtta Know

[Aldin]

Here's a condensed comparison of what changes and what stays the same between HS and AotP:

SAME

• Game related stats
• Movement rules (falling from great height is removed, water is the same but less intuitive)
• Combat rules
• Point buy army concept (with additional restrictions)
• Division of units into Unique and Common Heroes and Squads (Planeswalkers are added as an additional type)
• Compatible maps (with 6 large printed tiles as the map base and cardboard features)

DIFFERENT

• Squads can have life values greater than 1 for individual figures. This is tracked with "wound cubes" placed on their bases.
• World/Species/Class/Personality is replaced with MtG-style descriptions
• No Order Markers (turns resemble Basic Game)
• Only the main character (called a Planeswalker) starts on the board, and other units come on to the board within 5 spaces of them only on the Planeswalker's turn.
• The concept of specific off-board places in introduced (e.g. when the last figure of a squad dies the card goes to the army card graveyard and the figure goes to the figure graveyard)
• Each army has access to a 12 card deck of spell cards which have specific timing and game altering effects.
• The basic scenario's victory condition is not kill them all, but kill the opponent's main character.

As a Scaper, by far and away the most confusing aspects for me were in when and how to resolve spell cards. Everything else felt normal. Even having squads with life felt natural. Anything I need to add to either list?

~Aldin, PSAishly

[quozl]

Originally Posted by Aldin

[*]The basic scenario's victory condition is not kill them all, but kill the opponent's main character.

This isn't correct. It's what the victory condition is in 2 of the 3 scenarios listed in the rulebook but the normal rule is that you keep going until all your units are dead. After your planeswalker dies, you just cannot play any more spells.

[Aldin]

Not sure what to say. You say it isn't correct and then confirm it. You can certainly play kill them all AotP, but the scenario gist is that killing the opponent's Planeswalker is the more typical victory condition.

~Aldin, noting that you also cannot summon after your Planeswalker is dead

[quozl]

Why do you say it's the more typical victory condition? Scenarios are an example of play; they do not define play.

[Aldin]

Remember in the early days how we all played 400 point kill em all and standardized on 24 space start zones? Neither 400 points nor 24 spaces was "in the rules", but they were the gist of the scenarios in the booklet. We ultimately standardized around 500 points, but that was after a lot of experience got us there.

Similarly, if I were to give this game to two people who never played Scape, I would expect that their custom scenarios would tend towards 500 point, edge start, kill the Planeswalker.

We could say that Heroscape doesn't have specific army size or starting space requirements in the rules and that would be right - but if I were to say that the "typical" Heroscape battle was 500 point armies with 24 space start zones, that would also be right.

~Aldin, expectation settingly

[quozl]

Aldin,

You are comparing apples and oranges. I am talking about what's in the the rulebook of the new game. Why would the rulebook say how to continue playing when your planeswalker dies (page 7 - Planeswalker Rules) if that death is supposed to end the game?

[chas]

World/Species/Class/Personality

I find the MTG/AotP descriptions rather odd. They do not seem to be functional so far in any way, such as how Heroscape powers include some of their categories across Archkyrie General armies (but not others) for power/bonding synergy, but just general paraphrases of their army card names.

Perhaps they are irrelevant or follow MTG conventions: perhaps more about them will be revealed in time.

Turn Order

Here's an unusual little detail. The new rules state that in a team game, both team mates sit on the same side of the table, but the turn proceeds clockwise after the initiative roll. Scape rules don't cover team play or where players sit, just say to go clockwise after intiativec. But this new rule means that in AoTP, team mates will often follow each other in moving.

This I find odd, because my group always rolls for initiative (we usually play teams with four players) but insist that after each team decides which of its players will go first for the round, game play alternates between the two teams, which seems much more balanced. So I guess this aspect goes in the Differences group(?)

Of course, if you're sitting at a round table..?

I was onlyl ooking at Quozl's initial and partial scan of the rules pages, so perhaps I missed something here?

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by chas

World/Species/Class/Personality

I find the MTG/AotP descriptions rather odd. They do not seem to be functional so far in any way, such as how Heroscape powers include some of their categories across Archkyrie General armies (but not others) for power/bonding synergy, but just general paraphrases of their army card names.

Perhaps they are irrelevant or follow MTG conventions: perhaps more about them will be revealed in time.

They follow MtG conventions. Actually, they do have some important interactions. It is important to notice that a Planeswalker is NOT a creature, for example. Also, Several of Liliana's interactions refer to Zombies - not from the title, but from the description (though as it happens, both are zombies in the title as well).

~Aldin, suspecting that the similarity between titles and characteristics is intentional to make things easier to understand

ETA For your edit that happened during my response. I think that's another MtG thing. A format called Two-Headed Giant is popular in MtG and in it both allied players take their turns simultaneously. And you're right, I think, it should be listed in differences.

[Colorcrayons]

Originally Posted by chas

World/Species/Class/Personality

I find the MTG/AotP descriptions rather odd. They do not seem to be functional so far in any way, such as how Heroscape powers include some of their categories across Archkyrie General armies (but not others) for power/bonding synergy, but just general paraphrases of their army card names.

Perhaps they are irrelevant or follow MTG conventions: perhaps more about them will be revealed in time.

Definitely a difference. Yet they weren't often relevant in Heroscape either.
In M:tG, you might get combo synergies that say "All zombies get blah blah blah" or "All angels add blah blah" or "For each enchantment you have, gain one fudgesicle", etc...

Offtopic:
It must be difficult to balance so many different traits, and still make them usable. Zettian Guards are Soulborgs/Unique/Guards/Precise. When has precise ever came up? Maybe Guards has, but I don't recall that either. Unique Soulborgs is 99% of the time enough, just like Unique Zombies is enough for M:tG as well.

[Rÿchean]

Originally Posted by chas

Turn Order

Here's an unusual little detail. The new rules state that in a team game, both team mates sit on the same side of the table, but the turn proceeds clockwise after the initiative roll. Scape rules don't cover team play or where players sit, just say to go clockwise after intiativec. But this new rule means that in AoTP, team mates will often follow each other in moving.

This I find odd, because my group always rolls for initiative (we usually play teams with four players) but insist that after each team decides which of its players will go first for the round, game play alternates between the two teams, which seems much more balanced. So I guess this aspect goes in the Differences group(?)

Of course, if you're sitting at a round table..?

I was onlyl ooking at Quozl's initial and partial scan of the rules pages, so perhaps I missed something here?

Yeah, you did miss something - 'scape rules do cover team play and seating.
Page 6 SotM rule book:

Team Seating and Play: If you're playing a team game, teammates should sit next to each other on one side of the table, facing their opponents.

Team play has always been this way; the same entries appear in the Rise and Underdark rule books. Teammates are supposed to get back to back turns unless initiative roll happens to split them up for the first and last turns of a round.

It is just us 'scapers that decided that wasn't the right way to do it (which I do not agree with) and made these zig zag rules or initiative order rules; both are "house" rules even though they are often used in team tournaments.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

Team Seating and Play: If you're playing a team game, teammates should sit next to each other on one side of the table, facing their opponents.

Team play has always been this way; the same entries appear in the Rise and Underdark rule books. Teammates are supposed to get back to back turns unless initiative roll happens to split them up for the first and last turns of a round.

I thought you just followed the Order of initiativ. When we play team games team mates do sit beside eachother, but it is fairly irrelvent since we follow the Initiative of the dice (the same way you would in a 4 play free for all).

This is different in AofP since once the order is set it does not change. It is the same problem you see in classic risk since the strongest player can pick on the person who preceeds them, knowing it will be a while before retailiation occurs. Fixed turn order leads to unbalance inequality with one player always having the advantage.

[Aldin]

quozl,

Again, dunno what to say. The basic scenario (Duel, also the only 1v1 scenario) is not kill them all, but kill the opponent's Planeswalker. That's what I wrote - that the basic scenario was not kill them all, but kill the opponent's Planeswalker. I'm trying to highlight things that are different from Heroscape. That's different.

If there were an additional 500 points if summonable units for each color, and the scenarios listed 1,000 point armies, I'd have mentioned that as a change as well. Clearly that would have nothing to do with the rules, per se, but it would be a difference which I would expect someone with a Heroscape background to want to know.

I think maybe under SAME I should have mentioned the typical army is 500 points and under DIFFERENT I should have mentioned that typical start zones are map edges as opposed to 24 space zones. I need to think about it. Some things either seem too basic / insufficiently different to mention or are blind spots about things I take for granted.

~Aldin, consideringly