Classic Heroscape Power Rankings - Page 368

OEAO · #**4405** December 18th, 2014, 10:06 PM

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Originally Posted by Not User Name

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Originally Posted by Foudzing

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Is it possible that these rankings can be changed at all?

Blade Gruts should be moved up, they are vastly superior to Arrow Gruts and only slightly inferior to Heavy Gruts. They should be an A-.

As long as starting zones are there Blades Gruts are well ranked.

They're only really good in something like 400~450 points 24 hex, something which does not exist anymore.

They're a very active unit, so you can't mix them with dragons, majors or Kravs very effectively.

What you can take with them is Grimnak, Nerak, Raelin, Tornak.
You can take all that and 4 squads and you're at 510 points 23 hex.
The problem is that Tornak is not very good, and you don't need 2 fighting heroes, and 3 heroes for 4 squads is a lot, is so you want to cut it, but if you cut it you're à 410 points 21hexs, this kind of format doesn't exist.

Now that the standart SZ is 16 hexes, Blade Gruts are burried 6 feet deep, they even didn't deserve B+ with this SZ.

You can mix them with any Utgar hero thanks to Ornak.

He's still ignoring the reality that Blades were undefeated at 6-0 with this exact format. The army that was beat on day 2 was Hounds, fwiw.

Kinseth · #**4406** December 18th, 2014, 10:06 PM

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

Oh Axegrinders are for sure better(Id take a axegrinder army over a Blade grut army in a heartbeat.). Minions and Sentinels are really solid and have lots of good matchups, and do well vs many heroes too. I like all 3 of those ranked higher than Blades.

Blades are a good unit, but not in the class of those 3.

First of all, Minions and Sentinels also have a lot of bad matchups too. Like terrible.

Such as?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Secondly, I don't see how Axegrinders are better. Orcs can get the magical 4 defense, and have better heroes. Grimnak is much better than Mogrimm.

Sure they CAN, but how often is that happening? Blade Gruts are easier to ignore and you can go after the heroes more. Not as easy with the Heavies. Dwarves have solid heroes, are always 3/3 without needing an aura. Have lots of bonuses vs Large and Huge figures. That includes Grimmie. They are not as dependent on their heroes also.

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Dwarves never really do well at GenCon. They're more hype than anything else.

Not sure how Gencon matters in this, isn't gencon about RTW? I've never been to gencon, perhaps there are events that I am unaware of that this matters?

The minions and sentinels have bad matchups against auto destroys like Braxas, Torky, and Grimnak.

Sure Blades depend on their heroes. But honestly, 4 defense is not hard to get, just keep them next to Grimnak and within Nerak, aka slow roll which is already what you should be doing with a melee army. Blades are on par, at least.

GenCon has the best players overall IMO, and there are about 15 differently formatted tournaments. Guess what? Dwarves usually don't do well in any.

Best players? Your opinion based on what other large scale events have you played in? I would think you would need to experience all the big events in order to make that kind of statement. (There are many great palyers at Gencon, but not all great players go to gencon.)

Blades are a nice squad, but are much too dependent on heroes and that knocks them down in my book.

Kinseth · #**4407** December 18th, 2014, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

You can mix them with any Utgar hero thanks to Ornak.
He's still ignoring the reality that Blades were undefeated at 6-0 with this exact format. The army that was beat on day 2 was Hounds, fwiw.

6-0 in what format?

OEAO · #**4408** December 18th, 2014, 10:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

Oh Axegrinders are for sure better(Id take a axegrinder army over a Blade grut army in a heartbeat.). Minions and Sentinels are really solid and have lots of good matchups, and do well vs many heroes too. I like all 3 of those ranked higher than Blades.

Blades are a good unit, but not in the class of those 3.

First of all, Minions and Sentinels also have a lot of bad matchups too. Like terrible.

Such as?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Secondly, I don't see how Axegrinders are better. Orcs can get the magical 4 defense, and have better heroes. Grimnak is much better than Mogrimm.

Sure they CAN, but how often is that happening? Blade Gruts are easier to ignore and you can go after the heroes more. Not as easy with the Heavies. Dwarves have solid heroes, are always 3/3 without needing an aura. Have lots of bonuses vs Large and Huge figures. That includes Grimmie. They are not as dependent on their heroes also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Dwarves never really do well at GenCon. They're more hype than anything else.

Not sure how Gencon matters in this, isn't gencon about RTW? I've never been to gencon, perhaps there are events that I am unaware of that this matters?

The minions and sentinels have bad matchups against auto destroys like Braxas, Torky, and Grimnak.

Sure Blades depend on their heroes. But honestly, 4 defense is not hard to get, just keep them next to Grimnak and within Nerak, aka slow roll which is already what you should be doing with a melee army. Blades are on par, at least.

GenCon has the best players overall IMO, and there are about 15 differently formatted tournaments. Guess what? Dwarves usually don't do well in any.

Best players? Your opinion based on what other large scale events have you played in? I would think you would need to experience all the big events in order to make that kind of statement. (There are many great palyers at Gencon, but not all great players go to gencon.)

Blades are a nice squad, but are much too dependent on heroes and that knocks them down in my book.

Maybe the fact that many of the top OHS players go to GenCon? And get beat there by people who aren't online? That looks pretty top to me. I'm willing to be that Mattser is better than anyone online who he hasn't played at GenCon.

But once again, it's only an opinion.

And once again, the Blade's heroes can take some beating, which is why they're top.

OEAO · #**4409** December 18th, 2014, 10:11 PM

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

You can mix them with any Utgar hero thanks to Ornak.
He's still ignoring the reality that Blades were undefeated at 6-0 with this exact format. The army that was beat on day 2 was Hounds, fwiw.

6-0 in what format?

16- fig limit, which he said they were terrible in.

Kinseth · #**4410** December 18th, 2014, 10:20 PM

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

Oh Axegrinders are for sure better(Id take a axegrinder army over a Blade grut army in a heartbeat.). Minions and Sentinels are really solid and have lots of good matchups, and do well vs many heroes too. I like all 3 of those ranked higher than Blades.

Blades are a good unit, but not in the class of those 3.

First of all, Minions and Sentinels also have a lot of bad matchups too. Like terrible.

Such as?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Secondly, I don't see how Axegrinders are better. Orcs can get the magical 4 defense, and have better heroes. Grimnak is much better than Mogrimm.

Sure they CAN, but how often is that happening? Blade Gruts are easier to ignore and you can go after the heroes more. Not as easy with the Heavies. Dwarves have solid heroes, are always 3/3 without needing an aura. Have lots of bonuses vs Large and Huge figures. That includes Grimmie. They are not as dependent on their heroes also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Dwarves never really do well at GenCon. They're more hype than anything else.

Not sure how Gencon matters in this, isn't gencon about RTW? I've never been to gencon, perhaps there are events that I am unaware of that this matters?

The minions and sentinels have bad matchups against auto destroys like Braxas, Torky, and Grimnak.

Sure Blades depend on their heroes. But honestly, 4 defense is not hard to get, just keep them next to Grimnak and within Nerak, aka slow roll which is already what you should be doing with a melee army. Blades are on par, at least.

GenCon has the best players overall IMO, and there are about 15 differently formatted tournaments. Guess what? Dwarves usually don't do well in any.

Best players? Your opinion based on what other large scale events have you played in? I would think you would need to experience all the big events in order to make that kind of statement. (There are many great palyers at Gencon, but not all great players go to gencon.)

Blades are a nice squad, but are much too dependent on heroes and that knocks them down in my book.

Maybe the fact that many of the top OHS players go to GenCon? And get beat there by people who aren't online? That looks pretty top to me. I'm willing to be that Mattser is better than anyone online who he hasn't played at GenCon.

But once again, it's only an opinion.

And once again, the Blade's heroes can take some beating, which is why they're top.

I didn't notice TheSparkleInyourWater, Kevindola, Foudzing, Bengi, Kinseth, Wanderer999(6 of the top 10 online players) at Gencon, and two of them are #1 and #2. Pretty sure Filthy, Dok, Vegie, Vegies Dad ,InfectedSloth, Megasilver have all won Gencon events. 4 of the top 10 Online players who go to Gencon have all won Gencon events before.

I am sure Mattser is a great player, I don't doubt that. (I've never seen him play before, I can't say if he is better or not than some of the top online players.)

The point is that Blades are too reliant on their heroes, and that is the issue as to why they are not ranked higher. They are a "Sum of their parts is greater than the whole" kind of army, but that doesn't mean the unit itself is an A-.

Kinseth · #**4411** December 18th, 2014, 10:21 PM

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

You can mix them with any Utgar hero thanks to Ornak.
He's still ignoring the reality that Blades were undefeated at 6-0 with this exact format. The army that was beat on day 2 was Hounds, fwiw.

6-0 in what format?

16- fig limit, which he said they were terrible in.

This RTW or not RTW? I don't see why a B+ squad can't go 6-0? Seems perfectly reasonable.

OEAO · #**4412** December 18th, 2014, 10:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

Oh Axegrinders are for sure better(Id take a axegrinder army over a Blade grut army in a heartbeat.). Minions and Sentinels are really solid and have lots of good matchups, and do well vs many heroes too. I like all 3 of those ranked higher than Blades.

Blades are a good unit, but not in the class of those 3.

First of all, Minions and Sentinels also have a lot of bad matchups too. Like terrible.

Such as?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Secondly, I don't see how Axegrinders are better. Orcs can get the magical 4 defense, and have better heroes. Grimnak is much better than Mogrimm.

Sure they CAN, but how often is that happening? Blade Gruts are easier to ignore and you can go after the heroes more. Not as easy with the Heavies. Dwarves have solid heroes, are always 3/3 without needing an aura. Have lots of bonuses vs Large and Huge figures. That includes Grimmie. They are not as dependent on their heroes also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Dwarves never really do well at GenCon. They're more hype than anything else.

Not sure how Gencon matters in this, isn't gencon about RTW? I've never been to gencon, perhaps there are events that I am unaware of that this matters?

The minions and sentinels have bad matchups against auto destroys like Braxas, Torky, and Grimnak.

Sure Blades depend on their heroes. But honestly, 4 defense is not hard to get, just keep them next to Grimnak and within Nerak, aka slow roll which is already what you should be doing with a melee army. Blades are on par, at least.

GenCon has the best players overall IMO, and there are about 15 differently formatted tournaments. Guess what? Dwarves usually don't do well in any.

Best players? Your opinion based on what other large scale events have you played in? I would think you would need to experience all the big events in order to make that kind of statement. (There are many great palyers at Gencon, but not all great players go to gencon.)

Blades are a nice squad, but are much too dependent on heroes and that knocks them down in my book.

Maybe the fact that many of the top OHS players go to GenCon? And get beat there by people who aren't online? That looks pretty top to me. I'm willing to be that Mattser is better than anyone online who he hasn't played at GenCon.

But once again, it's only an opinion.

And once again, the Blade's heroes can take some beating, which is why they're top.

I didn't notice TheSparkleInyourWater, Kevindola, Foudzing, Bengi, Kinseth, Wanderer999(6 of the top 10 online players) at Gencon, and two of them are #1 and #2. Pretty sure Filthy, Dok, Vegie, Vegies Dad ,InfectedSloth have all won Gencon events. 4 of the top 10 Online players who go to Gencon have all won Gencon events before.

I am sure Mattser is a great player, I don't doubt that.

The point is that Blades are too reliant on their heroes, and that is the issue as to why they are not ranked higher. They are a "Sum of their parts is greater than the whole" kind of army, but that doesn't mean the unit itself is an A-.

I'm going to end the debate over which is a better pool of players.

And I believe it states in the op that the rankings is based off of value in their best army. If their best army is with these units, and they can compete on par with A- units, then I have a hard time understanding how you could say something like that statement. If the army deserves an A-, with them being a component in it, then they should get an A-.

Same discussion sparked over what to give Rygarn, but the consensus is that he gets an A- due to his best build.

I think you may be ignoring the reality of the scale.

Edit: never mind, wrong scale, I still don't see how they can be less than an A- though.

OEAO · #**4413** December 18th, 2014, 10:29 PM

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

You can mix them with any Utgar hero thanks to Ornak.
He's still ignoring the reality that Blades were undefeated at 6-0 with this exact format. The army that was beat on day 2 was Hounds, fwiw.

6-0 in what format?

16- fig limit, which he said they were terrible in.

This RTW or not RTW? I don't see why a B+ squad can't go 6-0? Seems perfectly reasonable.

RTW, true, but I already stated what armies I beat. You can check for full army lists in the GenCon thread if you'd like.

Kinseth · #**4414** December 18th, 2014, 10:37 PM

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

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Originally Posted by Kinseth

Oh Axegrinders are for sure better(Id take a axegrinder army over a Blade grut army in a heartbeat.). Minions and Sentinels are really solid and have lots of good matchups, and do well vs many heroes too. I like all 3 of those ranked higher than Blades.

Blades are a good unit, but not in the class of those 3.

First of all, Minions and Sentinels also have a lot of bad matchups too. Like terrible.

Such as?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Secondly, I don't see how Axegrinders are better. Orcs can get the magical 4 defense, and have better heroes. Grimnak is much better than Mogrimm.

Sure they CAN, but how often is that happening? Blade Gruts are easier to ignore and you can go after the heroes more. Not as easy with the Heavies. Dwarves have solid heroes, are always 3/3 without needing an aura. Have lots of bonuses vs Large and Huge figures. That includes Grimmie. They are not as dependent on their heroes also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Dwarves never really do well at GenCon. They're more hype than anything else.

Not sure how Gencon matters in this, isn't gencon about RTW? I've never been to gencon, perhaps there are events that I am unaware of that this matters?

The minions and sentinels have bad matchups against auto destroys like Braxas, Torky, and Grimnak.

Sure Blades depend on their heroes. But honestly, 4 defense is not hard to get, just keep them next to Grimnak and within Nerak, aka slow roll which is already what you should be doing with a melee army. Blades are on par, at least.

GenCon has the best players overall IMO, and there are about 15 differently formatted tournaments. Guess what? Dwarves usually don't do well in any.

Best players? Your opinion based on what other large scale events have you played in? I would think you would need to experience all the big events in order to make that kind of statement. (There are many great palyers at Gencon, but not all great players go to gencon.)

Blades are a nice squad, but are much too dependent on heroes and that knocks them down in my book.

Maybe the fact that many of the top OHS players go to GenCon? And get beat there by people who aren't online? That looks pretty top to me. I'm willing to be that Mattser is better than anyone online who he hasn't played at GenCon.

But once again, it's only an opinion.

And once again, the Blade's heroes can take some beating, which is why they're top.

I didn't notice TheSparkleInyourWater, Kevindola, Foudzing, Bengi, Kinseth, Wanderer999(6 of the top 10 online players) at Gencon, and two of them are #1 and #2. Pretty sure Filthy, Dok, Vegie, Vegies Dad ,InfectedSloth have all won Gencon events. 4 of the top 10 Online players who go to Gencon have all won Gencon events before.

I am sure Mattser is a great player, I don't doubt that.

The point is that Blades are too reliant on their heroes, and that is the issue as to why they are not ranked higher. They are a "Sum of their parts is greater than the whole" kind of army, but that doesn't mean the unit itself is an A-.

I'm going to end the debate over which is a better pool of players.

And I believe it states in the op that the rankings is based off of value in their best army. If their best army is with these units, and they can compete on par with A- units, then I have a hard time understanding how you could say something like that statement. If the army deserves an A-, with them being a component in it, then they should get an A-.

Same discussion sparked over what to give Rygarn, but the consensus is that he gets an A- due to his best build.

I think you may be ignoring the reality of the scale.

A B+ army should be able to win events, nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with being ranked B+ also. I think they are elevated high enough to a B+ based on their best army.

Your point about the dwarves was how well they do at Gencon(Having not played in online events to even know how good the majority of online players are, and the majority of players don't make Gencon.), Anyways my point is that there are many good/great players that don't go to Gencon and many of the online players that do go to Gencon win events. Many of those players from discussions and results do like the dwarves, and I am guessing they would rank them higher than blade gruts.

Thanks for the discussion OrcElfArmyOne, I admire your passion towards the blade gruts. While we don't agree, that is the beauty of heroscape. Everyone has different views on what is best, and enjoys playing different figures. There are many figures I think that should be ranked higher or lower(Marro Dividers(Down), 10th(Up), Major Q10(Down), Eltahale(Up))just to name a few. I'm sure others feel different than I do about these figures also.

TheAverageFan · #**4415** December 18th, 2014, 10:40 PM

Can't everybody just be an A+?

OEAO · #**4416** December 18th, 2014, 10:41 PM