The Book of Venom (Flash Thompson) (Agent Venom)

[Arkham]

yea

The idea of these points being based on concrete theme is silly IMO. The ship to make things that accurate sailed in the beginning. Superman is pointed at 400-450, when Star-Lord is 250. 1 to 1 comparisons just don't work out like that. Beyond points, you have Superman and Thor's attack strength at 8, when characters who have a fraction of their raw power at half their attack with 4. It's just best not to get too hung up on that stuff, rather just find a comfortable spot gameplay wise that feels good IMO.

That’s not even counting the characters we have to dumb down just so they can exist in a game like this without being unfun due to sheer dominance.

As for 1v1 for a point comparison. I agree that nobody plays that way, so we shouldn’t balance that way. With over 700 figures, including boosters, synergies, and all that type of stuff. A 1v1 just isn’t necessary and doesn’t begin to tell you that design’s full potential.

[Scapemage]

I agree with most of the sentiments here. It's super nice when a character ends up in a point range that feels thematically appropriate, but I wouldn't be in favor of stretching a character's design in one way or the other to try and squeeze it into a specific range, just because it would make sense thematically. Heroscape is already a clash of cultures, and further than that, C3G is a clash of comic companies and designs that represent multiple eras of characters.

[Tornado]

I personally find the 1v1 useful. Helps to set the tone for me but my theory-scape is pretty weak so I learn the most from tests.
I guess really though it is more of a feeling as the results do not always tell the tale in a game with random dice results.

Yea

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Tornado

I personally find the 1v1 useful. Helps to set the tone for me but my theory-scape is pretty weak so I learn the most from tests.
I guess really though it is more of a feeling as the results do not always tell the tale in a game with random dice results.

Yea

I find that, for combat oriented heroes, they can give you a good sense of average performances in combat quickly - Army Tests are obviously more important, but with 1v1s you can get fairly reliable data in a small time-frame by rerunning tests and accounting for swings of luck via repetition. Trying to do that in army tests would either result in you losing your life or taking a decade to finish a design.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yea to Public testing.

[japes]

When I have a pretty straight forward figure I like to do a few One on One test. All the stat boosters should have that accounted for in their cost. It's kind of upsetting having to play certain cards only in those builds to make them worth it.

But as far as this thread goes...YEA

[Arkham]

We balance figures in their best armies, and often times those boosters make up their best armies, so I think the idea that the boosters absorb that cost kind of fell apart at some point unfortunately.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Arkham

We balance figures in their best armies, and often times those boosters make up their best armies, so I think the idea that the boosters absorb that cost kind of fell apart at some point unfortunately.

Perhaps not entirely, but they certainly absorb it in part - ain't no way you're convincing me Star-Lord's worth 250 without Ragtag Tactics, so that does need to be considered.

[Ronin]

This passes

[Arkham]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Agent Venom

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 1
Map: Custom
Units:
Agent Venom(240), Cap(240), Bucky(60), Nebula(230) (770)
vs.
Luke Cage(190), Iron Fist(260), Tigra(170), Moon Knight(150) (770)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R1T3: 1 wound on Luke Cage. (Double Shot + Cap)
R2T2: 2 wounds on Luke Cage. (Double Shot + Cap)
R2T3: 2 wounds on Luke Cage, kills him. (Double Shot + Cap)
R3T2: 1 wound on Iron Fist. (Double Shot + Cap)
R3T3: 1 wound on Iron Fist. (Double Shot + Cap)
R4T2: 2 wounds on Tigra. (Double Shot + Cap)
R4T3: 3 wounds on Tigra(botch), kills her. (single ranged)
R5T1: 2 wounds on Moon Knight(botch). (single ranged)
R5T2: 3 wounds(2 are excess) on Moon Knight. (Symbiote Rage +2)

Notes:
R2T2: Fist puts 2 wounds on Bucky. Cage takes 1 wound from LEA, kills Bucky.
R3T1: Fist puts 3 wounds on Cap(botch).
R4T1: Cap kills Iron Fist.
R4T2: Moon Knight kills Cap, and puts 1 wound on Agent Venom.
R4T3: Nebula puts 2 wounds on Moon Knight.
R5T1: Moon Knight puts 1 wound on Agent Venom.


Agent Venom with 2/5 wounds, Nebula unwounded.

Decent match, but Agent Venom was on his A game taking people out with his double attack of 5 thanks to Cap. This proved to be Luke Cage's kryptonite, and the other Fighters couldn't get anything going to bring it back.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 2
Map: Custom
Units:
Agent Venom(240), Cap(240), Bucky(60), Valkyrie(350), Oracle(110) (1000)
vs.
Fantastic Four (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R2T2: 2 wounds on Mr. Fantastic. (Double Shot + Cap + Oracle)
R2T3: 2 wounds on Invisible Woman. (Symbiote Rage +1 + Cap)
R3T1: 2 wounds on Invisible Woman. (Symbiote Rage +2 + Oracle)
R3T1: 3 wounds(2 are excess) on Invisible Woman, kills her. (Symbiote Rage +2)

Notes:
R2T1: Cap puts 2 wounds on Mr. Fantastic.
R2T1: Thing puts 2 wounds on Cap.
R2T2: Valkyrie prevents Cap from being destroyed by a full Clobberin' Time Thing.
R2T3: Human Torch takes 2 wounds from LEAs, then kills Cap and puts 2 wounds on Valkyrie with Fo4. Then puts 1 wound on Agent Venom. Thing puts 4 wounds on Valyrie with a full Cobberin' Time.
R3T1: Thing kills Valkyrie with a full Clobberin' Time.
R3T2: Thing kills Agent Venom with a full Clobberin' Time,l then puts 2 wounds on Bucky.
R3T3: Bucky puts 2 wounds on Thing(botch).
R3T3: Thing kills Bucky with a full Clobberin' Time.
R4T2: Human Torch kills Oracle with a Supernova.


Mr. Fantastic with 4/5 wounds, Human Torch with 3/5 wounds, and Thing with 2/6 wounds.

A crazy match with a lot of damage. The biggest factor was Mr. Fantastic sitting at 4 wounds since mid-game that allowed Thing several turns of Full Clobberin' Time attacks. That undoubtedly secured the win for the Fantastic Four. However, Agent Venom did decent and managed to take out Invisible Woman and dish out some wounds to Mr. Fantastic early on.

___________________________________________________________

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY:
Agent Venom has some decent attack potential with either the double from range, or potential boosted by wounds single attack adjacently. His Swing Line allows him to make that choice on each of his turns. The Bucky synergy is a nice little bonus, and makes for a natural team up with Cap or Star-Lord. 240 feels pretty accurate thus far. May go up by 10 but I don't feel it's necessary at this stage, and the overlapping class with Cap will prevent him from getting crazy with Star-Lord at the same time.

[Ronin]

Thanks, Ark! So far, so good.

[Lazy Orang]

- Theme Test - Inconclusive, as I don't know the character. I confess that as someone who loves the 90s Spidey cartoon, the thought of Flash Thompson as a superhero feels weird, but what can you do?
- Mirror Test - Pass
- Bonding Test - Pass - It's Bucky, I don't think we have any issues.
- Synergies Test - Pass - His main synergies are based less around his left-hand stats and more around working with Cap and Star-Lord.
- Power Check - Pass - He's scary, but he's not too much.
- Fun Test - Pass - I found him to be a quite a lot of fun to use.
- Fun Competitive Test - Pass
- Drafting Test - Pass
- Usage Test - Pass
- Strategy Test - Pass - The choice between two ranged shots or one stronger melee attack is an interesting one strategically, as is the choice between running or Swing Lining.

Name Of The Playtest Units: Agent Venom

Army Test 1
Map: Aurora by superfrog (no glyphs)
Armies:
Captain America, Agent Venom, Donald Ferguson, Bucky (700 points)
vs.
Leonardo, Raphael, Michelangelo, Donatello (700 points)

Spoiler Alert!

Overview of Agent Venom’s performance:
Damage inflicted through normal attacks: 2 wounds on Donatello, 4 wounds on Michelangelo, 3 wounds on Raphael.
Extra attacks through Double Shot: Five
Melee attacks made with Symbiote Rage: One (+3)
Extra wounds inflicted thanks to Symbiote Rage: 1 on Raphael
Times moved with Swing Line: Three

Round One

The Turtles claim the initiative and Don runs and vaults forwards.
Bucky runs forwards. Cap advances and throws his shield at Don, inflicting two wounds and causing him to drop his anti-grav gauntlet.
Mikey leaps forwards.
Agent Ferguson flies forwards and fires two Arm Rockets at Don, failing to harm him.
Raph goes off the leash and leaps forwards before charging Donald Ferguson, striking him twice from high ground, inflicting two wounds.
Bucky pulls back and fires his machine gun at Raph, failing to harm him. Agent Venom swings forwards and fires two shots at Raph, but fails to harm him.
Donald Ferguson repairs a wound.

Round Two

The Avengers claim the initiative. Bucky picks up the anti-grav gauntlet and uses it to carry Donald Ferguson to safety. Captain America charges Raph and strikes him for a wound.
Leo activates the X on Raph, who leaps to the western hill, claiming height on Captain America and striking him twice, inflicting three wounds with a deadly first blow. Leo then activates the 3 on Don, who runs and staff vaults before striking him twice from high ground, inflicting a wound with his first blow and causing Bucky to drop the gauntlet. Leo activates the 2 on Mikey, who charges Captain America, picking up the gauntlet before striking, inflicting a wound. Leo leaps forwards.
Bucky moves to higher ground and punches Don, who blocks the blow. Flash moves to higher ground and fires a shot at Don, shooting him down before firing another shot at Mikey, shockingly inflicting two wounds as the Turtle only manages a single skull.
Bucky charges Mikey, shockingly punching him for a wound with a deadly blow. Agent Venom repositions and fires two more shots at Mikey, which bounce off his shell.
Donald Ferguson’s repair systems fully compensate for damage.

Round Three

The Turtles claim the initiative. Leo activates the X on Raph, who lays into Captain America from height, knocking him out with his second blow, eliminating the Avengers’ first turn. Mikey leaps forwards and strikes Agent Venom from low ground with a deadly blow, inflicting three wounds. Leo charges Bucky and shreds him with two blows.
Leo charges Agent Venom and strikes him twice, inflicting a wound.
Agent Venom swings away and opens fire on Mikey from high ground, shooting him down with the second shot.
Flash swings to the crest of the north-western hill and fires two shots at Raph, inflicting a wound.

Round Four

The Turtles claim the initiative. Leo activates the X on Raph, who charges Agent Venom, striking him twice, but Flash evades his blows. Leo charges Donald Ferguson and in two blows first chops off an arm, then decapitates him, eliminating the Avengers’ last turn.
Flash crushes Raphael, shattering his shell and knocking him out.
Beast and Angel wail away at the Martian, to no effect.
Leonardo leaps north and cuts down a tree, causing it to collapse on Flash Thompson, finishing him off.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles victorious - Leonardo unwounded.

Overview: Wow - both the Turtles and Flash Thompson were rolling hot with attack dice that game, that was one hell of a bloodbath! Agent Venom inflicted a bloody tally there, but honestly that was because I couldn't seem to roll anything but skulls early on, and the Turtles weren't getting many shields - it was just a skull-fest all round, the TMNT were having similar luck on the attack. He feels like a fun, versatile, strategic, simple mid-ranger - not the Flashiest figure (pun intended) but one I can imagine getting quite a bit of use.

Army Test 2
Map: Second Sight by superfrog (no glyphs)
Armies;
Star-Lord, Agent Venom, Blink, Bucky (695 points)
vs.
Luke Cage, Spider-Man (C3G), Ryu, Dagger (695 points)

Spoiler Alert!

Overview of Agent Venom’s performance:
Damage inflicted through normal attacks: 5 wounds on Spider-Man, 3 wounds on Luke Cage
Extra attacks through Double Shot: Two
Melee attacks made with Symbiote Rage: Two (+2), Two (+3)
Extra wounds inflicted thanks to Symbiote Rage: 1 on Spider-Man
Times moved with Swing Line: Four

Round One

The Guardians claim the initiative. Blink blinks herself and Star-Lord forwards to the crest of the nearest ridge.
Ryu leaps forwards and Luke Cage advances.
Bucky and Agent Venom run forwards.
Spider-Man swings forwards and Luke advances.
Bucky and Venom advance.
Spider-Man swings forwards and fires a web at Agent Venom from low ground, shockingly inflicting two wounds. Luke advances.

Round Two

The Guardians claim the initiative. Bucky charges Luke Cage and punches him, but to no avail. Flash Thompson strikes his idol in melee from high ground, inflicting a wound.
Spider-Man swings away and fires a web at Bucky, inflicting two wounds. Luke Cage moves to higher ground and knocks Bucky out.
Agent Venom charges Spider-Man and is able to strike him for two wounds due to not triggering his spidey-sense - the benefits of being bonded to a symbiote! (Spidey rolled a 12... not quite enough vs. a Symbiote...)
Spidey swings to higher ground and fires a web at Star-Lord, inflicting a wound. Luke charges Agent Venom and punches him, but Agent Venom blocks the blow.
Agent Venom swings away. He fires a shot at Spider-Man, who swings away, before firing another shot at Luke Cage, inflicting a wound.
Spider-Man pulls Star-Lord to low ground before punching him for a wound. Luke Cage charges Agent Venom and punches him for a wound.

Round Three

The Guardians claim the initiative. Agent Venom swings towards Spider-Man and strikes him, but Spidey swings away.
Parker pulls his old bully to low ground and strikes him, inflicting a wound, before Luke Cage charges him - the blow is blocked.
Agent Venom swings to high ground and, due to not triggering Parker’s spidey-sense on account of being a symbiote, flattens him.
Luke Cage punches Star-Lord, inflicting a wound.
Agent Venom swings to higher ground before opening fire on Luke Cage, inflicting a wound with each shot.
Luke Cage delivers a knee to Peter Quill’s face, knocking him out.

Round Four

Luke Cage claims the initiative and charges Agent Venom, knocking him out and eliminating the Guardians’ first turn.
Luke moves to equal ground with Blink and punches her, inflicting a wound.
Blink hits Luke with a Phase Javelin, forcing him into her start-zone.
Ryu leaps forwards.
Blink retreats and throws another javelin at Luke, taking him out.

Round Five

Blink claims the initiative and blinks forwards to the top of her side’s ledge.
Ryu runs forwards and throws a Hadoken at Blink, inflicting a wound.
Blink throws a Phase Javelin at Ryu, inflicting a wound and teleporting him nine spaces backwards.
Ryu leaps forwards
Blink waits.
Ryu runs forwards and throws a Hadoken at Blink, inflicting a wound.

Round Six

Blink claims the initiative and throws a Phase Javelin at Ryu, but fails to harm him.
Ryu leaps up and strikes Blink, but she blocks.
Blink strikes Ryu for a wound, but he blocks.
Ryu strikes Blink to no avail.
Blink kills Ryu, eliminating the enemy’s last turn.

Round Seven

Dagger claims the initiative and advances.
Blink waits.
Dagger advances.
Blink waits.
Dagger runs forwards and throws a light dagger at Blink, inflicting a wound.
Blink throws a Phase Javelin at Dagger - shockingly, she rolls all skulls, and Dagger blanks, getting killed in one shot.

Guardians of the Galaxy victorious, Blink 3 wounds.

Overview: Blink really carried the day at the end there, grasping defeat from the jaws of victory! I really enjoyed Agent Venom again - I think he's a really solid design. (Just to clarify - I normally never use Spider-Man in testing due to him being too erratic, but I wanted to see how the symbiote interaction worked here.)

Final Thoughts On The Tested Unit:

Think I’ve said everything - he’s simple, he’s fun, he’s solid. I wouldn't entirely rule out a drop to 230, but I'm not seeing anything to indicate it being necessary so far.