The Book of Nakita Agents

[dok]

The Carr question is unrelated IMO, because it is space-by-space movement. A corollary of that is that this whole question of which space you went through is also unrelated.

I'm going to break down movement into four different categories for our purposes:

1. Regular space by space movement where engagement mechanics apply during the movement. When you leave and enter engagement is well-defined, with the exception of ghost walking through a Nakita. That's arguable either way, I guess, but it's a separate issue.
   
   Many special powers (Vanish, Grapple Gun, etc) fit in here. One unusual power that kinda-sorta fits in this category even though it seems like it shouldn't is Glacier Traverse. It's been ruled in the past that a DT that moves from one side of a figure to the other with Glacier Tracerse remains engaged to that figure.
   
   
2. Space-by-space movement that explicitly nullifies engagement rules during the movement. This includes flying, stealth flying, Grapple Arm, Stealth Leap, Super Leap, and Swing Line.
   
   Whether the figure takes leaving engagement or not at the start of movement isn't really important for our purposes. What matters here is that the power mentions leaving engagement, and also mentioned that engagement rules don't apply mid-move.
   
   I would argue that all of these powers lead to a fresh engagement strike upon placing the figure, even if it started its move engaged with that Nakita. You're leaving engagement then coming back.
   
   
3. Placing powers. Spear of Summoning, Elven Summoning, Knockback, Throw, Chain Grab, Talon Grab, Teleport, Teleport Reinforcements, Fey Step, Thunder Step, Underground Movement, (Swamp) Water Tunnel, and Shadow Dance. All of these powers may be used to take a figure from one side of a Nakita and place it on the other side. All of these powers mention whether the placed figure should take leaving engagement attacks.
   
   I would argue that all of these powers break engagement and give the Nakita another chance to kick you in the face.
   
   
4. Tactical Switch. The unique language here puts it in it's its own category, I think. Intuitively, I would argue that a figure (either the warforged or the other guy) switched between two spaces adjacent to a Nakita is continuously engaged with the Nakita and is not subject to an Engagement Strike. I doubt I'd get much argument there but it's worth noting.

[Aldin]

We're agreed on 1&4. Not so much on 2&3. Here's my reasoning:

A figure is subject to a leaving engagement attack when it explicitly leaves engagement. Leaving engagement (unless directly superseded by a special power) happens when a figure moves from a space that is adjacent to a space that is not adjacent.

Using the powers in 2&3, if a figure never moves from an adjacent space to a space that is not adjacent it remains engaged unless the power it is using directly specifies that is leaves engagement.

I understand logically why this shouldn't be true for 2&3, but I can't see a rule-reason why it shouldn't be true. Stealth Movement is actually a great example even though it falls under #1. Under Stealth Movement, even though leaving engagement attacks aren't taken, we don't assume engagement has been left as long as the figure stays adjacent. So Stealth Moving around a Nakita DOES NOT trigger engagement strike, even though it mentions leaving engagement. I don't think we get to assume that Stealth Flying, for example, automatically breaks engagement simply because it mentions, like Stealth Move, the Stealth Flier not taking leaving engagement attacks.

~Aldin, who thinks teleporting et al can work the same way

[The B.I.V.]

Originally Posted by Aldin

We're agreed on 1&4. Not so much on 2&3. Here's my reasoning:

A figure is subject to a leaving engagement attack when it explicitly leaves engagement. Leaving engagement (unless directly superseded by a special power) happens when a figure moves from a space that is adjacent to a space that is not adjacent.

Using the powers in 2&3, if a figure never moves from an adjacent space to a space that is not adjacent it remains engaged unless the power it is using directly specifies that is leaves engagement.

Not entirely true. Whenever a Flyer/Stealth Flyer begins to fly, it breaks engagement (rules say so). So they would take an engagement strike upon landing next to the Nakita even though it never left physical adjacency. Not sure on the other mentioned powers, though. Perhaps, there should be 5 categories...

Originally Posted by Aldin

I understand logically why this shouldn't be true for 2&3, but I can't see a rule-reason why it shouldn't be true.

Except in the case of Flying/Stealth Flying, as previously stated.

Originally Posted by Aldin

Stealth Movement is actually a great example even though it falls under #1. Under Stealth Movement, even though leaving engagement attacks aren't taken, we don't assume engagement has been left as long as the figure stays adjacent. So Stealth Moving around a Nakita DOES NOT trigger engagement strike, even though it mentions leaving engagement. I don't think we get to assume that Stealth Flying, for example, automatically breaks engagement simply because it mentions, like Stealth Move, the Stealth Flier not taking leaving engagement attacks.

Stealth Flying does break engagement as soon as the player states that his figure is flying.

Originally Posted by Aldin

~Aldin, who thinks teleporting et al can work the same way

So I think I can agree with Aldin on everything except Flying/Stealth Flying. I think this is fairly simple. Let's take Thunder step. If Eltahale is adjacent to a Nakita and thundersteps (basically a teleport) next to the same Nakita Agent, she never broke engagement and doesn't get engagement struck. The leaving engagement language is only there to cover a situation where Eltahale does leave engagement with Thunder step such as if she were to Thunderstep away from one Nakita and into engagement with another separate Nakita agent.

[Aldin]

I see where Flying says engagement is broken, but I don't see where Stealth Flying says engagement is broken. I see where it says that it doesn't generate leaving engagement strikes - but that's not quite the same thing.

~Aldin, getting his Nakitas back out of storage for a throwdown with Taelord

[dok]

Looking in the rules, I don't see anything that separates Flying/Stealth Flying from the other 18 powers I mention. Flying isn't mentioned in the rulebook, except in the glossary by way of example. The "If [unit] is engaged when [he/she] starts to [use this power], [he/she/it] [will/will not] take any leaving engagement attacks" is the same for every unit in category 2, whether it's a flying power or not.

The category 3 powers that move the figure with the power (teleport, tunnel, underground movement, thunder/fey step, shadow dance) also use this exact construction. The other category 3 (category 3b?) powers, which move other figures, leave off the "when [he/she/it] starts" language, and just say that the figure doesn't take leaving engagement attacks if engaged.

[Aldin]

It seems clear that Flying breaks engagement because it mandates a leaving engagement strike. If it did NOT mandate a leaving engagement strike, it seems to me that the phrase "may ... pass over figures without becoming engaged" is not sufficient to force the flier to disengage from an otherwise adjacent figure.

All of the powers which specify a form of "if it is engaged it will not take leaving engagement attacks" do not mandate breaking engagement. They do say that when using that power, the figure is not subject to leaving engagement attacks.

Because Stealth Flying is based on Flying, the assumption would be that the breaking engagement mandate of flying carries over to stealth flying where stealth flying removes the penalty rather than the forced condition of broken engagement. However, that assumption is based on what is implied rather than on what is stated.

If I were guessing intent, I would say that all the 2&3 powers are intended to function as if engagement is broken at the beginning and then re-established at the end of the use of the power. If I were rules-lawyering, I would have to question where in any of those powers it mandates that engagement is broken if we weren't reading into the powers based on what we know about flying.

~Aldin, intentionally overrulled

[Scytale]

I'm with dok on this one. The wording of the powers brought up directly suggests that the act of using the powers leaves engagements. They do not say something like "<unit> does [not] take leaving engagement attacks when moving with XXXX," rather they say that simply using the power invokes leaving engagement attacks. Examples:

Stealth Flying
When counting spaces for <unit>'s movement, ignore elevations. <unit> may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When <unit> starts to fly, if <he/she/it> is engaged <he/she/it> will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Stealth Leap
Instead of <his/her/its> normal move, <unit> may Stealth Leap. Stealth Leap has a move 3. When counting spaces for <unit>'s leaping movement, ignore elevations. <unit> may leap over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and leap over obstacles such as ruins. <unit> may not leap more than 12 levels up or down in a single leap. If <unit> is engaged when <he/she/it> starts to leap, <he/she/it> does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Spear of Summoning
After moving and before attacking, choose any figure you control on the battlefield, then roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1-8, nothing happens. If you roll a 9-20, move the chosen figure to any space adjacent to <unit>. If the summoned figure is engaged, the figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks.

Thunder Step
Instead of moving <unit> normally, you may choose an opponent's figure within 5 clear sight spaces of <unit>. Place <unit> on any empty space adjacent to the chosen figure. For the duration of <unit>'s turn, add 1 to <his/her/its> attack value. At the end of <his/her/its> turn, roll 1 attack die. If a skull is rolled, place 1 wound marker on <unit>'s Army Card. If <unit> is engaged when <he/she/it> starts Thunder Step, <he/she/it> will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

If using the power invokes leaving engagement attacks, like Flying one would assume the figure is no longer engaged, even if it hasn't moved any spaces yet. Thus moving to a different space adjacent to the same figure would be entering engagement.

[dok]

I'm going to set aside all the powers that work using standard movement, as well as Glacier Traverse and Tactical switch, because we all agree that none of those break engagement.

I'll break down the remaining categories as far as I think can possibly matter

1. Powers that call out a specific number of spaces for movement and specifically state that engagement rules do not apply during the movement.
   1. Powers where the figure does not take leaving engagement attacks when it begins movement:
      • Stealth Flying
      • Stealth Leap
      • Swing Line
   2. Powers where the figure takes leaving engagement attacks when it begins movement:
      • Flying
      • Grapple Arm
      • Super Leap
   
   
2. Powers that place that figure on another space.
   1. Powers where the figure does not take leaving engagement attacks when it moves using this power:
      • Fey Step
      • Shadow Dance
      • Swamp Water Tunnel
      • Thunder Step
      • Teleport
      • Water Tunnel
   2. Powers where the figure takes leaving engagement attacks when it moves using this power:
      • Underground Movement
   
   
3. Powers that place another figure on a certain space.
   1. In all cases, the figure does not take leaving engagement attacks when it moves using this power.
      • Chain Grab
      • Elven Summoning
      • Knockback
      • Spear of Summoning
      • Talon Grab
      • Teleport Reinforcements
      • Throw

To me, the distinction between whether you take or do not take LEAs is irrelevant to the question at hand. The 1a and 1b powers use the exact same language aside from that.

The 1a and 1b powers explicitly ignore engagement mechanics while moving. The "may pass over figures without becoming engaged" really tips the designers' intent here, IMO. To argue that they maintain continuous engagement with the figures they were engaged with at the start, while avoiding engagement with any other figure they move over or next to during the turn, does not really make sense either through a literal reading of the power or intuitively.

The 2a, 2b, and 3 powers are more of a gray area, I guess. It's not too hard to argue that we simply move from the first place to the second place, and then we check to see if there are any engagements left or engagements created. We can view the "[does/does not] take leaving engagement attacks" as a directive on how to handle any engagements that were left after placing.

So, in conclusion, I've revised my position a bit. I think that Drake SotM or a Shaolin Monk does get a kick in the face when moving around a Nakita using their special power. But if TBR teleports from one side to the other, or a figure gets Chain Grabbed from one side to another, that does not trigger a fresh engagement strike.

EDIT: I guess, when you think about it, Glacier Traverse is arguably a "2b" power where they just left off the sentence about leaving engagements by accident. And since we have the ruling that Glacier Traverse does not cause a LEA if a DT moves from one side to the other, that backs up the interpretation that the 2a and 2b powers don't break engagement when moving from one side of a figure to another.

[Lyrgard]

hum... All I can conclude, on a strict logical point of view, is that 2a, 2b and 3 powers are gray area in regards to the rules.

Intuitively, I would agree with dok except for "teleport" style powers.
With Flying powers, all happens as if the figure starting to fly leave the map for a virtual space above it (in the sky, if you want), and returns to the map at the end of the flying, becoming adjacent to figure around where he/she/it land (and then triggering opportunity strike).

I see teleport in a similar way. The teleporting figure leave the real plane to re-enter it at another location. Whether the initial position was already adjacent to a nakita or not is irrevelent for me, teleporting/teleported figure should take opportunity strike if the teleport adjacent to a nakita, wherever they where before.

So for me, intuitively, without being able to justify my opinion by rules, I would say that the powers are of two categories :

1) Powers the make the figure leave the map plan and reenter it, either going above it, under it or somewhere else

• Any "go above" power, as Flying/stealth flying, various Leaps, Grapple Arm/Gun, Talon Grab, ...
• Any "go bellow" powers, as (Swamp) Water Tunnel, Underground Movement
• Any "go elsewhere" powers, as Teleport, Elven Summoning, Teleport Reinforcements, Spear of Summoning

Thoses powers would always triggers opportuny strike if the final space is adajcent to a Nakita, wherever the initial position was, because by leaving the map plan, the engagement was broken.

2) Power where the figure stay in the map plan

• Chain Grab, Knockback, Glacier Traverse

Those powers won't triggers opportunity strike if the figure was continously adjacent to a Nakita.

They are powers opened to debate :

• Does Throw put a figure high enough to consider it left the map plan ?
• Are Fey/Thunder Step and Shadow dance a sort of teleport, or a sort of "move super fast" power ?

[Aldin]

So it looks like we get to make the call. The interaction of powers and rules simply isn't clear enough to force a single interpretation. As such, I'm not in favor of splitting the difference with some of the powers triggering and some of them not triggering - even if that were the best and finest parsing of the rules.

I think the general rule for this entire batch of powers should be the intuitive one - they disengage on use of the power and re-engage at the end of the use of the power. I think things like Tactical Switch could then be exceptions to the rule.

~Aldin, who dislikes counter-intuitive things in games

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I'm with dok on this one. The wording of the powers brought up directly suggests that the act of using the powers leaves engagements. They do not say something like "<unit> does [not] take leaving engagement attacks when moving with XXXX," rather they say that simply using the power invokes leaving engagement attacks. Examples:

If using the power invokes leaving engagement attacks, like Flying one would assume the figure is no longer engaged, even if it hasn't moved any spaces yet. Thus moving to a different space adjacent to the same figure would be entering engagement.

This seems to be the proper ruling to me. Use of a special power indicates the figure is exiting the process of prolonged, engaged combat. Think about what engagement represents, an interactive physical and/or mental process with an adjacent unit requiring a significant amount of focus often refereed to as a dance. Once a special power is activated, that focus on the engagement at hand is broken. You are no longer engaging in the physical or mental sparing/parrying/blocking/ducking/etc. required to maintain the engagement, the dance is broken. After use of the special power is completed you may then reengage the opponent and by doing so you risk suffering the consequences of starting up a new dance from scratch.

[Lyrgard]

The sentence :
If <unit> is engaged when <he/she/it> starts <power>, <he/she/it> will (not) take (any) leaving engagement attacks.
just means that if the power would move the figure out of engagement, it would trigger or not leaving engagement attack. It don't make mandatory for the power to break engagement every time it is used, it just say what happens if engagement is broken. It don't say that it break engagement.

All other conclusion are just "feeling", not backed-up by the rules as they are. The best result we could achieve would be a community consensus. But community would mean "people on this forum", not all heroscape players...