Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

[Lazy Orang]

I could get behind that.
Hell, with the religious imagery and all she's borderline Jeanne d'Arc.

[Zetsubo]

If you wanted to keep it a 3 figure squad, you could change their planet to Arctorus. SoV custom Prince al'Kahora is already a knight from that planet. Maybe these could be the knights of his kingdom, and they have no issue with female knights

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

If you wanted to keep it a 3 figure squad, you could change their planet to Arctorus. SoV custom Prince al'Kahora is already a knight from that planet. Maybe these could be the knights of his kingdom, and they have no issue with female knights

That would work. I have no issue with female knights/warriors in squads not from Earth - in fact I welcome them! (I also welcome them in squads from Earth, if historically justified - a bit niche, but a squad of Sarmatian warriors with a woman in it wouldn't raise an eyebrow with me.)

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Wow, great discussion on the crusaders! Not entirely sure what I want to do with it, so I'll just let it ruminate for a bit. I do think a Joan of Arc type hero would be neat as a human champ to bond with knights and friends.

Anyway, I wanted to throw this Thieves Guild idea I've been working on for a while out there. Check it out! No figure for this yet, I'm a little less interested in what people think of a miniature (*ahem* thread hijacking! ) and more what you think of this design mechanically. (And most of all, I haven't looked around for a miniature for this because I've been so busy trying to work through a Thieves Guild power)

Kelasho the Crooked
Utgar

Human (or maybe an elf )
Unique Hero
Rogue (or Guildmaster?)
Tricky

Life - 5
Move - 6
Range - 1
Attack - 3
Defense - 2
Points - ???
(All of these stats are pretty flexible)

Thieves Guild
After revealing an order marker on Kelasho the Crooked, instead of taking a turn with Kelasho the Crooked, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 3 or higher, you may take a turn with up to 2 different Rogue heroes you control or 1 Rogue squad you control. If you roll a 1 or 2, choose an opponent. That opponent may take temporary control of a Rogue hero or squad you control and immediately take a turn with that hero or squad. At the end of the turn, control of the chosen hero or squad returns to its previous owner. All order markers that were on the figure's Army Card remain of the Army Card.


Grrr, this was hard to come up with. Ended up kind of mashing Enslave and Stab in the Back into a bonding power. Initially I wanted to have him make the figures you use with the Thieves Guild have to roll for Stab in the Back, but it just got too tricky working with Elaria cuz the power would be on his card and I didn't entirely like it cuz it was just a big old headache. Also considered having Kelasho temporarily betray you and your opponent being able to use Thieves Guild, but then there was obstacles with "figures you control" and I kind of gave up trying run circles around that. I think I'm happy with how this works tho. Including squads in the picture provides a potential mechanical wrinkle, but I'm not entirely sure how it works so I think its fine to leave for now. If its too much of a problem I figure it could be just heroes.

Thematically this is an idea that I really really like. I think it'd super cool to have a guildmaster who gives your rogue army a bunch of flexibility, but whose presence sometimes inspires your rogues to do a little betrayal in order to climb the guild ladder.

Like I said earlier, this post is much less about a completed unit design and much more about the Thieves Guild power. I would love love love some input from people! Just for some reference, here is my initial attempt at a Thieves Guild from some time ago:

Spoiler Alert!

The Thieves Guild, a faction of Rogues

Firstly, I give you Cormin the Dark childhood friend of Elaria the Pale.


Cormin is a Half-Elf Hexblade from D&D.

Elf
Unique Hero
Rogue
Tricky
Medium 4

Life - 4
Move - 6
Range - 1
Attack - 5
Defense - 2
Points - 75

FAÇADE 11
If Cormin the Dark is targeted by an opponent's figure's normal attack, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, choose a small or medium figure that you control within 4 spaces of Cormin the Dark. Switch Cormin the Dark and the chosen figure. The attacking figure must attack the chosen figure if possible. Figures moved by Façade 11 do not take leaving engagement strikes.Cormin The Dark may only roll for Façade 11 once per turn.

STAB IN THE BACK
After you take a turn with Cormin the Dark, you must roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1, choose an opponent. That opponent now controls Cormin the Dark. Remove any order markers from this Army Card, and then give the card to that opponent.

Yelvin the Crooked a Wererat who specializes in laying traps.


The figure is Wererat Rogue, from D&D's War of the Dragon Queen. The figure in the picture is a promo version of the figure, which is evidently an albino Wererat. Either one is good.

Hybrid
Unique Hero
Rogue
Tricky
Medium 4

Life - 3
Move - 6
Range - 1
Attack - 3
Defense - 2
Points - 45

TRIP WIRE
When an opponents figure moves within 3 clear sight spaces of Yelvin the Crooked, you may roll the 20 sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, the figure and all figures adjacent to it receive 1 wound. A figure is not affected by Trip Wire while flying. You may only roll for Trip Wire once per turn.

STAB IN THE BACK
After you take a turn with Yelvin the Crooked, you must roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1, choose an opponent. That opponent now controls Yelvin the Crooked. Remove any order markers from this Army Card, and then give the card to that opponent.


Melaine the Silent a sneaky theif who offer a Knife Throwing Special Attack, perfect for picking off those annoying ranged units.


The figure is Sharn Cutthroat, from D&D's Aberrations.

Elf
Unique Hero
Rogue
Tricky
Medium 4

Life - 3
Move - 6
Range - 1
Attack - 3
Defense - 2
Points - 50

THROWING KNIFE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 2.
If Melaine the Silent is attacking a small or medium figure, that figure figure rolls 1 less defense die.

CONCEALMENT 14
If Melaine the Silent is targeted and receives one or more wounds from an attacking figure who is not adjacent, you must roll the 20-sided die. Count the minimum number of spaces between the attacker and Melaine the Silent. Add this number to your die roll. If you roll a 14 or higher, ignore any wounds Melaine the Silent just received.

STAB IN THE BACK
After you take a turn with Melaine the Silent, you must roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1, choose an opponent. That opponent now controls Melaine the Silent. Remove any order markers from this Army Card, and then give the card to that opponent.


Finally Kelasho the Brutal the Guildmaster of the Thieves Guild, ruling with an iron fist and viciously hacking away at people when necessary


Karsite Fighter, D&D Blood War

Human
Unique Hero
Rogue
Merciless
Medium 5

Life - 6
Move - 5
Range - 1
Attack - 4
Defense - 4
Points - 200

THIEVES GUILD
After revealing an order marker on Kelasho the Brutal, instead of taking a turn with Kelasho the Brutal, you may take a turn with up to 2 different Rogues you control. Kelasho the Brutal cannot be one of the 2 Rogues. Any Rogue that is taking a turn instead of Kelasho must be within 10 clear sight spaces of another Rogue.

BRUTAL STRIKES
When Kelasho the Brutal attacks an adjacent figure, he may attack that same figure 2 additional times.


Note: the Thieves Guild is intended to be best with C3V's Elaria the Pale. After all, she is quite nice for not letting them all stab you in the back.

[Astroking112]

I like the idea behind a crooked guildmaster that (loosely) ties the very varied rogues into a group. It's a unique and thematic concept, especially because many of these rogues already have their own (stronger) synergy webs that they're more generally known for.

I also like the idea of making his class Guildmaster rather than Rogue. It fits the theme and is similar to Kantono and Kato having their own classes, and it stops him from betraying his own guild only to come back the next turn. It's a small touch, but seeing him randomly turn and run into lava to cripple your army when he betrays them feels simultaneously funny and off.

Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince

Thieves Guild
After revealing an order marker on Kelasho the Crooked, instead of taking a turn with Kelasho the Crooked, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 3 or higher, you may take a turn with up to 2 different Rogue heroes you control or 1 Rogue squad you control. If you roll a 1 or 2, choose an opponent. That opponent may take temporary control of a Rogue hero or squad you control and immediately take a turn with that hero or squad. At the end of the turn, control of the chosen hero or squad returns to its previous owner. All order markers that were on the figure's Army Card remain of the Army Card.

I really like the unreliable controller angle. It's something that I've played around with for silly personal customs such as giving a Kato Katsuro A Stab in the Back, but I think that this is such a perfect theme for a rogue guildmaster while also being able to form a unique feel for the faction. The feeling that any of your heroes could betray you at any given second is pretty great, and it's perfect here. I'm not a big fan of letting the Beakface Sneaks betray you because using Flocking for your own Raptorians would feel very odd, but I really like the idea for the heroes.

My main concern with this draft is that Nottingham Brigands still feel like they'll be a better option the majority of the time. You lose the chance to take a turn with Beakface Sneaks or two Unique Rogue Heroes instead of just one and a Brigand, but you get a lot more consistency, and 7 range with 3 attack isn't bad. Plus, the Brigands are cheap enough that you can probably afford multiples for whatever point value Kelasho ends up being. Unless we start seeing more Unique Rogues that benefit from being able to act simultaneously, I fear that the Nottinghams will overshadow Kelasho.

It might be interesting to address this by adding a third tier to the Crooked Command Thieves Guild, such as getting a 17-ish or higher to take a turn with three Rogue Heroes. Something not reliable enough to be consistent, but that has the possibility to distinguish Kelasho further from the Brigands. That also sets him even further apart from the familiar controller figures while playing on the same unreliability. Unfortunately, it does start to lose the feeling of A Stab in the Back by adding an upper tier, bordering more on a generic random theme that doesn't hit the mark quite as strongly.

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

A big thanks for the thoughts!

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I also like the idea of making his class Guildmaster rather than Rogue. It fits the theme and is similar to Kantono and Kato having their own classes, and it stops him from betraying his own guild only to come back the next turn. It's a small touch, but seeing him randomly turn and run into lava to cripple your army when he betrays them feels simultaneously funny and off.

Ideally, I would like to have Kelasho be able to betray you. I think the move is to go all in on this Thieves Guild theme. Perhaps a more thematic approach is to just roll Stab in the Back straight into the Thieves Guild power, as opposed to losing control of a rogue for just one turn. Maybe something like:

Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince

Thieves Guild
After revealing an order marker on Kelasho the Crooked, instead of taking a turn with Kelasho the Crooked, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 3 or higher, you may take a turn with up to 2 different Rogue heroes you control or 1 Rogue squad you control. After using Thieves Guild, you must roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1 or 2, choose an opponent. That opponent may take temporary control ofchoose a Unique Rogue hero or squad you control and immediately take a turn with that hero or squad. At the end of the turn, control of the chosen hero or squad returns to its previous owner. All order markers that were on the figure's Army Card remain of the Army Card.. That opponent now controls that hero or squad. Remove any order markers from this Army Card, and then give the card to that opponent.

I bit concerned about this mechanically: Ideally I want there to be some interplay with Elaria the Pale's Queen of Thieves power, but I'm not sure how the wording "After using Thieves Guild" affects that.

Originally Posted by Astroking112

My main concern with this draft is that Nottingham Brigands still feel like they'll be a better option the majority of the time. You lose the chance to take a turn with Beakface Sneaks or two Unique Rogue Heroes instead of just one and a Brigand, but you get a lot more consistency, and 7 range with 3 attack isn't bad. Plus, the Brigands are cheap enough that you can probably afford multiples for whatever point value Kelasho ends up being. Unless we start seeing more Unique Rogues that benefit from being able to act simultaneously, I fear that the Nottinghams will overshadow Kelasho.

Woohoo! This was something I was also worried about, glad we're on the same page! Ideally the situation would be one where Kelasho provides more flexibility than the Brigands bring. Further, I do have plans for more Utgar rogues of the Elaria and Cormin vein that would make up a thematic "Theives Guild", and probably work well together. I am partial to the idea of being able to have some Brigands in your army that can be activated by Kelasho: at the end of the day it seems fitting to me that rogues would have a lot of flexibility to pull off some neat stuff.

Some things I'm unsure of: is it worth it to include squads, and even common heroes, within Thieves Guild? Is the power better with permanent change of control? (limits things to unique figures only, and some of them will already have Stab in the Back, which makes for some interesting rolls) Is the power still interesting enough if Elaria can completely negate it as long as she's around?

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince

Ideally, I would like to have Kelasho be able to betray you. I think the move is to go all in on this Thieves Guild theme. Perhaps a more thematic approach is to just roll Stab in the Back straight into the Thieves Guild power, as opposed to losing control of a rogue for just one turn. Maybe something like:

I bit concerned about this mechanically: Ideally I want there to be some interplay with Elaria the Pale's Queen of Thieves power, but I'm not sure how the wording "After using Thieves Guild" affects that.

If you want Kelasho to be able to betray the guild, then a class of Rogue makes sense. I'm not a big fan of a permanent Stab in the Back here, mostly because I feel like it'll be a little too crippling. I don't see many cases where the opponent would choose a figure other than Kelasho, since removing him kind of cripples the army (unless you have Brigands as well), and then that removes the tension of the thieves potentially betraying each other as well.

It also ensures that you'll almost never want to take him without Elaria the Pale. She's reasonably cheap and would prevent anyone from ever betraying the guild if it's just a permanent loss on a 1 (although, as you mentioned, Cormin already has his own Stab in the Back). Making it only a temporary betrayal lets you keep the roll at 2 or 3, which is still definitely helped by Elaria, but not entirely negated. At the end of the day, I think that it's important to ensure that this flexibility still has some unreliability to distinguish Kelasho from the other controllers.

Woohoo! This was something I was also worried about, glad we're on the same page! Ideally the situation would be one where Kelasho provides more flexibility than the Brigands bring. Further, I do have plans for more Utgar rogues of the Elaria and Cormin vein that would make up a thematic "Theives Guild", and probably work well together. I am partial to the idea of being able to have some Brigands in your army that can be activated by Kelasho: at the end of the day it seems fitting to me that rogues would have a lot of flexibility to pull off some neat stuff.

Some things I'm unsure of: is it worth it to include squads, and even common heroes, within Thieves Guild? Is the power better with permanent change of control? (limits things to unique figures only, and some of them will already have Stab in the Back, which makes for some interesting rolls) Is the power still interesting enough if Elaria can completely negate it as long as she's around?

I do like how the Brigands are included in the synergy web (since their bonding requires an Order Marker, it isn't broken with Thieves Guild) and they can be used separately from the Thieves Guild power itself. If Kelasho is cheap enough, I could see him being an addition to those armies for the flexibility, but I'm still concerned that the prospect of taking a turn with both Darrak Ambershard and Locksley in one Order Marker isn't enough to make him worthwhile, for example. With more rogue heroes, that could definitely be eased, although it is worth noting that there has been some fatigue over having too many medium generic fantasy heroes.

For your question about squads, no Rogue squads other than the Beakface Sneaks immediately come to mind for me. I think that it's a nice piece of added flexibility to include them (especially since the Nottinghams have practically no synergy with them themselves), but at the end of the day, it could lead to some weird interactions with the betrayal mechanic if you want to use a form of Stab in the Back. I would like to see it stay, but I'd also understand if it was cut down the line.

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

After some thinking and some testing, I've got a version of Swaysil that I'm very happy with!



There's just 2 changes from the prior edition: The name has been changed from Swaysil of the Northlands to just Swaysil, and more importantly, Run Down has been changed from a roll of 9 to a roll of 13. Big improvements! The only thing I'm a bit unsure of is if I should change the name of Run Down to "Run Down 13." It does seem like the type of power that might get reused, but a roll of 13 is a pretty good spot I've found, and Point Blank Shot 1 already has a number in it. Just wanted to post this here, and show off the card I made (woohoo that was pretty fun but a little time-consuming!).

Re: Kelasho the Crooked, I've come to a bit of an impasse on whether or not to make the Thieves Guild power a permanent betrayal or a temporary one. Both have their upsides: I think the temporary betrayal is more interesting, while the permanent betrayal is more thematic and fits in with a bunch of rogues which will potentially have Stab in the Back. I think I'll play around with both ideas and settle on the one that feels more right. Another possibility I had thought of was a Guildmaster Treasure Glyph (!) which Kelasho would potentially start the game with. Who knows, lots of options and I'll have to think about it a lot.

[Astroking112]

I like both of those changes to Swaysil. I would suggest going with Run Down 13 for the power name, because even if the power never gets used again (or is only used with the same number) having the roll cut-off in the title is a convenient reminder.

[Taeblewalker]

I love Swaysil!

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince

Anyway, I wanted to throw this Thieves Guild idea I've been working on for a while out there. Check it out! No figure for this yet, I'm a little less interested in what people think of a miniature (*ahem* thread hijacking! ) and more what you think of this design mechanically. (And most of all, I haven't looked around for a miniature for this because I've been so busy trying to work through a Thieves Guild power)

Pathfinder's upcoming City of Lost Omens set has a preview for a figure that immediately made me think of your Rogue controller. The sculpt name is Thief Guildmaster:



She's marked as a Rare, so she might be pricy, but I figured that it was worth letting you know. I still really like the idea of a Thieves Guild led by an unreliable leader.