Sports: NFL

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by bmon

I'd rather lose to the Lions than the Packers.

Amen. Despise the Packers.

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Why didn't SF try to resign Kap if he was so great? They gave him many, many chances and worked with him directly, yet they decided they would be better off going in a new direction.

Because, at that point, the 49ers were a dumpster fire? Let's not pretend anything between the Superbowl loss and the ShanaLynch era was something a real NFL team wants to be doing.

~Aldin, editing

ETA I think this may have been unclear. By the time Kaepernick opted out the damage had already been done by Tomsula and Kelly. Technically, Shanny was already the coach, but Kaep was looking to go elsewhere.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

As Aldin just mentioned, scheme fit is a bit one, not every QB fits into every system and teams don't just overhaul their entire playbook mid-season when their QB1 goes down for a guy signed off the street. If they sign or trade for a guy mid-season he's expected to run the offense they already have in place.

All true, but:

• The extent to which Kaepernick is a system QB who relies on the read option or what have you is vastly overstated by his detractors. If you followed the links I gave before and read the film analyses, this point gets made over and over.
  
  Kaep played for 3 different offensive coordinators in his final seasons in SF. They had vastly different systems, but with the exception of the year he was hurt his numbers were decent. He played from the pocket, he made reads, he did the things QBs are expected to do.
  
  
• To the extent that Kaepernick does have scheme fits, he was well suited to the offenses of several teams that had pressing needs. While nobody does what Rodgers does, Kaep had played in a system with the same terminology for most of his career, and he's comfortable running the bootlegs that Rodgers is known for. Kaepernick would have been a fairly intuitive backup for Mariota as well, where their terrible backup nearly cost them a playoff spot.
  
  
• There is something to be said for underlying skill and talent, as well. Kaepernick has put up some remarkably efficient career numbers despite playing for a declining franchise. Comparing him to the guys who were getting signed when Mariota got hurt is just comical.

Finally, just as a semi-relevant counterpoint: the best coaches do change their system to fit the QB, even during the season. Pederson famously did this last year with Foles, tweaking the offense and getting it humming again after a couple weeks of adjustment. Belichick has done this when Brady has been out. In Denver, I remember the insanity of Tebowmania from back in the day, and while there was some extraordinary good fortune in that playoff run, Jon Fox did do a good job of adjusting the offense to take advantage of Tebow's unique (albeit limited) skill set.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Brandon Weedon was absolutely terrible in Dallas when Tony went down, and he was already on the team and thus should have been familiar with the system, but it still wasn't a good fit for him. Dallas thought they could make it work, which is why they signed him, but they ended up being wrong. He went to the Texans the next year and looked much better in that scheme.

I didn't see much of those games, but I'm not really sure I'm willing to read so much into a few starts worth of work. He looked mediocre in Dallas, and then had a couple decent (if not exactly prolific) games against two bad defenses while in Houston. Also notable is that he looked better in both places than he did as the starter in Cleveland, so the talent surrounding him might be the first and easiest explanation for his numbers.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Another factor is the salary cap, teams just can't blow big money on short term patches. Elway already made it clear that they were interested in Kap at once point but he wanted too much money.

If we're talking about the potential trade back in 2016, Kaepernick was already under contract. What happened was the 49ers and Broncos couldn't agree to terms. Elway was not even in a position to offer him a contract at the time. The 49ers elected to keep him and pay his full salary, and he ended up starting most of the season after his recovery from injury. This really has absolutely no bearing on what happened after he hit free agency the next offseason.

I realize Elway had that quote which is what you're referencing, but it's really just a feeble attempt on his part to explain why they didn't pursue him in free agency the next year. It honestly makes no sense at all, which is unsurprising because he's trying to avoid mentioning the real reason (the protests).

And if you want a sense of what Elway is willing to throw at a QB, take a look at Keenum's contract. Go ahead, look again. Your eyes are not deceiving you.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

If the player thinks he's worth more than a team thinks he worth to them then they go unsigned. Dez Bryant is finding that out right now, is the league colluding vs. him too? Even the 'no longer the stud he once was' Dez is still better than a bunch of #2 & #3 WRs in the league right now, but Dez wants to get paid like a #1, which he is not viewed as anymore.

Nah, Dez is just being crazy. Or maybe he's right that a team will get desperate and throw him some money when they think they need a boost. But no, there's no collusion there.

On the other hand, Eric Reid is very likely a victim of collusion. It's awfully hard to believe a top-flight safety, someone who was listed as a top free agent by the NFL, just can't find anyone who wants him. What makes it really look like collusion is that the entire safety free agent market took a huge nosedive this year, leading to speculation that safeties are being lowballed in an effort to cover for Reid going unsigned. I'm not quite sure what to make of that, personally, but the situation is bizarre whether that's true or not.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

As for the retired NFL player, never heard of that guy before but yes some NFL players are just casual fans and some are even less than that.

...you know, you could actually read the articles. The analysis should stand on its own. There's a lot of misconceptions about Kaepernick's play. The links I provided are not just someone blathering about how Kaepernick made a Super Bowl. They are showing game film and charting plays. Read it, and consider it on the merits.

Or don't, and just say that "anonymous league sources" that are totally, totally not trying to cover for the blackballing of Kaepernick are right when they say he "can't operate out of the pocket".

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Why didn't SF try to resign Kap if he was so great? They gave him many, many chances and worked with him directly, yet they decided they would be better off going in a new direction.

Well, they didn't move on from Kaepernick so that they could watch a 32 year old Brian Hoyer put up uniformly worse numbers despite a significantly improved receiver corps and offensive line.

Setting aside the "so great" hyperbole, I don't struggle to explain this at all. Again, it's the protests. He's been blackballed. That's the point of this entire discussion.

[Swamper]

I think it's pretty obvious Kap is being blackballed, but I'd be shocked if they could actually prove it in court. He could definitely start for the Bills, maybe the Browns. I'd take him as back-up in Carolina.

On another note, I think Carolina is getting overlooked. I think we can challenge the Saints for the South, and beat the Falcons out for a wildcard spot. This team reminds me a lot of the 2015 one- speedy WRs and a solid D. I expect Cam to spread the ball out a lot. I can't think of a time in Cam's career when he's had this much talent. Maybe in 2011 when he had Olsen, Shockey, Stewart, Deangelo Williams, and Steve Smith.

The one concern is the offensive line. Lots of injuries there, but they're better with Matt Kalil out, IMO. Excited to see them play the Cowboys tomorrow.

[IAmBatman]

I think y'all should create a separate thread for Kaepernick so that this one can be about players in the league and games that happen this season.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I think y'all should create a separate thread for Kaepernick so that this one can be about players in the league and games that happen this season.

No kidding. I was tired of talking about him when he was still sitting instead of kneeling. It's not that I don't care about protests in general or about his cause in particular. It's just that there just isn't much to say (that interests me, anyway) beyond the obvious.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

No kidding. I was tired of talking about him when he was still sitting instead of kneeling. It's not that I don't care about protests in general or about his cause in particular. It's just that there just isn't much to say (that interests me, anyway) beyond the obvious.

I have a feeling that what you consider obvious on this subject would not be considered so by many others.

I completely understand being bored by discussions of Kaepernick, the player. It's a tired subject for sure, and only relevant insofar as it's needed to make clear that, absent the protests, the dude would absolutely have a job in the NFL.

But the fact that the NFL is likely engaged in collusion to prevent a player from getting a job, and that collusion may have spread to other prominent protesting players (such as Eric Reid), is absolutely a topical, relevant subject. There's a non-trivial chance that the CBA gets terminated early as a result of this.

[IAmBatman]

Touche. If I feel the whim to discuss the NFL again I’ll just start an NFL On the Field thread so I don’t hijack this one.

[Dad_Scaper]

Dok, you suspect perfectly correctly that what I consider "obvious" is not something that others here would agree with. Probably nobody here would agree with all of my thoughts on the story.

But what's the point of arguing? Ultimately you're quibbling about decisions made by strangers in smoky rooms. They did; they didn't; whatever. You attempt to prove with statistics that he should have been signed, and your points are well taken, but ultimately there are only so many teams, each with its own decision makers. We might agree there were some situations where, on paper, there should have been mutual interest, but it's not a huge number (heck, even 32 is not a huge number), and individual choices were made in individual board rooms. You and I apparently disagree about why the Ravens wouldn't want him to start, but what are you going to say, other than what you've said? It's circles.

As for the protest itself, why shouldn't the guy protest, if he wants to protest? I don't care. I think it's silly that people care about the manner of his protest, but what makes other people upset is not my concern. They aren't hurting anybody by being annoyed at Kaep, as far as I can tell, and I have little interest in having a big conversation with strangers about civics. Let them be annoyed.

For myself, I will take the fellow who wraps himself in the Constitution and burns the flag, over the guy who wraps himself in the flag and burns the Constitution. Not that I am faced with such a dire choice here. Kaep's just a guy protesting without hurting anybody, and how you respond, dear tv watcher, is up to you. Most of the other stuff ("Kneeling is disrespectful!" when it clearly, historically and culturally, is not) is just noise.

I haven't seen anything to shake these positions, which have only changed a very little since his protest first began. At the beginning, for instance, I wrongly thought nothing would come of it. Boy was I wrong about that!

As far as the business side of the NFL goes, I am much more interested in the way it handles player discipline for off-field issues. Greg Hardy should have been out of the league after being convicted of what he did to his then-girlfriend; it was - some of you may know, if you are familiar with this sort of thing - deep, deep into the cycle of domestic violence. That was some scary [bad word], but the Panthers kept him on, and then the shameless Cowboys @#$%ing signed him, despite what he'd been convicted of doing.

Those stories interest me. Why are guys like Suh and Burfict allowed to continue to play, after *repeatedly* demonstrating wicked behavior on the field? I wonder. Those conversations interest me. The ongoing saga of Colin Kaepernick does not.

[IAmBatman]

Football interests me. I think all the rest of this crap is a major part of why viewership is starting to take a hit (though their highs were probably unsustainable and cord cutting probably plays just as big of a role).

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Football interests me. I think all the rest of this crap is a major part of why viewership is starting to take a hit (though their highs were probably unsustainable and cord cutting probably plays just as big of a role).

I'd agree with this, too, as I've agreed with Bats before on this subject. I think that, in a cosmic sense, civics is more important than football, but it's not something that I choose to enjoy with friends, family, and strangers, the same way I enjoy football with them.

[dok]

If teams in the league collude with the office or each other to deny employment or suppress salaries, that's a serious violation of the CBA. Blatantly corrupt behavior by the rich and powerful should offend us.

Other major sports have

gone through similar episodes

gone through similar episodes

. That the motivation here is to avoid a political backlash as opposed to just pinching pennies is beside the point.

And yes, it should also offend us that someone like Gregg Williams can continue to be employed despite explicitly ordering his players to injure other players (even suggesting the sort of injury - it's disgusting stuff). There's plenty of room for offense.