The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Leaf_It]

Hooo boy, that's a lot of posts to reply to before I head out to work. Lets clear some stuff out real quick. You DO NOT NEED ENGAGEMENT, and I stated this in the initial post with this quote:

I have settled on 6 sight spaces because it is the move of all the common Drow, and if I want her to be useful, I need to make sure the figures you are switching with can be reached, without needing to use order markers just to position the Assassin. I also don't want to make it any farther because I don't want the turn 1 threat range to be too high. Currently I only justify it at it's current range because of the Death chasers of Thesk. They can effectively get a full squad of 4 attack figures, and a bonded hero very close to your start zone turn 1, where as this will leave a Drow Common figure in your start zone, and won't move anything but the Assassin as far as the Death Chasers can get, which usually only puts it in a bad position.

That was by design. They have a threat Range of 12.

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I agree with TREX. While I can't say anything for what you envision for that Unique Squad of Drow, I would definitely enjoy being able to use these Assassins with Pelloth/Estivara as well, and it could serve the dual purpose of getting them out of danger after using some of their abilities. This is an interesting take on Bonding, and personally, I'd rather see it help all of the Drow than just the Common figures.

I'm debating adding in the unique Heros, it will just take more testing to make sure that doesn't change anything major. The squad idea can't work without enough similar looking figures, so I was considering making it just a unique Hero, instead of a squad which can't work if I add Unique heros to the Assassin. I'm feeling like scrapping the idea for now though.

Originally Posted by obfuscatedhippo

Personally I think this power is too wordy and the 'Shift' at that distance does seem like a Teleport (versus an assassin sneaking around).

How about you simplify and go with a power like War Cry from the Mohicans? It gives a pseudo-bonding and has been play-tested already. I'll modify -

ASSASSIN'S CALL (War Cry)
After taking a turn with a Drow figure, if at least two Drow you control are engaged, you may immediately take a turn with one Drow Assassin you control.

https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ad.php?t=25123

huh... I'm not sure how I feel about this. In my experience playing the Mohicans, that Bonding power was not as easy to pull off at times as it might seem, and I think the Drow need something better.

The range on "Strategic Shift", which is going to be changed to "Shadow Shift", is there to maintain usefulness. I didn't run many tests with lower ranges, but it was harder, or mostly just more annoying to pull off, and made you move figures towards the Assassin just to ensure the shift happened.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Ooooo! I really like that. Basically it’s as if the Drow are holding down the figure so the assassin can jump in and finish the job.

I think you have a point there concerning simplicity. It does seem like a teleport ability especially because they can potentially jump 5 levels higher than they are and within 6 spaces. That’s a ton of mobility. Probably too much?

I think that the selfish theme of the Drow goes against that; why would they hold them down for another when they can just kill them themselves? I have been using them with that range. Sneak Attack incentivizes against abusing it, and the Assassins are High priority targets because they are your bonders, so it's not a good idea to rush them out usually.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I. Love. This. This is what the Drow have needed for a long time, something tying them together and making them effective. I originally thought the Deepwyrms should just have bonding, but this is much more interesting. I would repeat the suggestion of having it work for Unique Heroes, though - I'd like to see them get that bit of synergy too.

Thank you for the kind words towards the design. I'll look into Uniques a bit more.

Originally Posted by jedilou

For the Drow Assassin, I'm assuming that the Drow Assassin using Strategic Shift can only attack, but not move, on this additional turn (like the Pathfinder's "Firefight" special power). Otherwise the threat range would be off the charts for a free turn (at least one without a penalty, i.e., Alastair MacDirk).

If my assumption is correct, I think it would be helpful to clarify that point.

No. You do not need engagement, and they have a threat range of 12 as I stated earlier in the thread. Sneak Attack incentivizes you not to just bum rush your opponent with an assassin, but if you do this anyway, the stats are now basically a Deepwrym without poison, and you are suiciding your bonding unit. I don't recommend it unless you are getting a shot at Realin or something.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I agree that should be clarified...otherwise that’s a ton of movement as the ability just indicates you can switch with a figure that attacked, which means the figure could have killed a unit, ending unengaged, pop in an assassin and then have the assassin still move 6 and attack.

See above. They are very mobile, as you would expect of an Assassin. I mentioned that they can do this in the initial post, which I quoted at the top of this one, I guess everyone missed that part?

Originally Posted by superfrog

You know, that's also how I assumed the power worked after a first read. Great catch!

See above.

Originally Posted by Scytale

Wait, that's not how it works? I don't think it's overpowered. There's an awful lot that has to go right for the situation people are concerned about, and even then, lacking Disengage or good survivability, and being dependent on Sneak Attack for a strong hit, something like that would just be pointlessly suicidal. The threat range of two melee units going back-to-back is only about as much as many range units normally have.

I even sent this design to you (and Bigga for full disclosure) for feedback before posting it here, and mentioned that they can do this. Incase anyone is wondering, The design didn't change, though I didn't simplify the card based on Bigga's feedback.

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I like how the Shift lets the Assassin still move afterward, as I feel like it's a unique ability that we haven't seen before (and, in all honesty, the Drow could use the help). While this does give her a potential move of 12, the fact that this is for a single attack of three (since the accompanying squad would be left behind in order to reach that far) doesn't really bother me. In a way, it's like adding a ranged attack to the Drow, albeit far more limited and at the cost of leaving some of your own units behind as you switch. Sneak Attack helps combat this well, in my opinion, although the latter parts of a game might prove to be more crazy with switching large distances and still getting that boosted attack.

I am curious how taking multiples of these guys alone fairs, though. Unless I'm mistaken, they work perfectly fine with themselves, so I could see just taking them and not worrying so much about Order Marker management for stuff like the Chainfighter.

Yes, they work just fine with themselves. This makes setting up Sneak Attacks harder, but you can definitely do it if you want to. Some of the funnest times with these guys is getting a double Sneak Attack by attacking with one that's already engaged to a figure that's engaged with multiple Drow, and then Switching to get a second Sneak Attack in. The Assassin's are pretty high value targets for your opponent's though, so you usually don't get to do this. It's great when you do though.

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Well met!

A very elegant design. The lack of Disengage mitigates the possibility of moving further during Strategic Shift nicely - perhaps too much so. As it is, it would happen only under the most extreme circumstances. I suggest the Assassins be Uncommon Heroes, each with two or three Life (adjusting their price accordingly). Then the risk/reward would be more balanced

Thank you for the compliment to the design. Making them Uncommon doesn't change much, all it really does is prevent them from Bonding with themselves, and you usually don't put order markers on them. 4 attacks per turn when bonding with the Deepwrym, is usually more benefitial than bonding with another Assassin, though there are occasions where it's still useful. If I allow for Uniques, as many people are asking that I do, then Making them Uncommon really will be pointless, because they would still bond with themselves. The biggest advantage to Uncommon would be more Life, but I feel like this would raise their price a little higher than I would want. I'll think about it, but I don't think it's necessary.

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I'd just like to point out that the wording of Strategic Shift says that the Drow Assassin can change with any figure that attacked or moved this turn, so you could even walk a Drow backwards while attacking with two others, then switch in the Assassin and have him rush in for the third attack.

Of course, that method requires you to sacrifice attacking with one of your squad members, so I'm inclined to believe that it would be balanced (and an interesting tactical decision). As it stands, it would still be very difficult to get attacks off on four different figures every turn, I imagine.

Seeing the Assassins become more expensive Uncommon Heroes could be interesting, although I'm not sure how I'd feel about that. It would make disengages much easier to gamble on for sure, but thematically it makes sense to me for an assassin to be dangerous but easy to kill. If the Assassins worked with Estivara and Pelloth as well, then the need for heroes in a Drow army could already be covered, so it'd be interesting to rely on weaker common heroes for 'bonding.'

Yes, initially it was any Drow that Activated, but Scytale pointed out that you could just Activate 2 Deepwrym, and then cause problems with determining who the 3rd activated Deepwrym was, so I changed it to "Attacked, or Moved". Walking a figure backwards to get the Shift to work is a huge part of using them effectively, and you are right, it sacrifices an attack. What if that attack had hit, and you could poisoned the Hero killing them? It's up to you to decide when you want to do this. (spoiler: you usually do)

I agree, especially if I add Unique Heros to the bonding options, Uncommon is not necessary. A somewhat squishy glass cannon is what I would want from these guys, and their value in the army makes them a priority target, so they aren't going to be ignored, which further mitigates using them too aggressively after Shifting them.

[obfuscatedhippo]

Personally I think this power is too wordy and the 'Shift' at that distance does seem like a Teleport (versus an assassin sneaking around).

How about you simplify and go with a power like War Cry from the Mohicans? It gives a pseudo-bonding and has been play-tested already. I'll modify -

ASSASSIN'S CALL (War Cry)
After taking a turn with a Drow figure, if at least two Drow you control are engaged, you may immediately take a turn with one Drow Assassin you control.

huh... I'm not sure how I feel about this. In my experience playing the Mohicans, that Bonding power was not as easy to pull off at times as it might seem, and I think the Drow need something better.

Agreed - War Cry is not a perfect form of bonding - but since you are trying to add bonding to an existing unit I thought this would work nicely (especially since the Deepwyrm are melee only and the Mohicans have the choice of Ranged attacks vs melee).

And Agreed that the Drow need a lot of help to be competitive.

This is a totally different direction but you could go with a d20 power vs Sneak Attack.

STEALTH MOVEMENT
After taking a turn with a Drow Hero or Squad, if at least one Drow figure attacked an opponent's figure, you may move up to two Drow Assassins that did not move or attack this turn up to 6 spaces each.

ASSASSINATE 15
After moving this Drow Assassin, you may choose one adjacent figure and roll the 20-sided die. Add 3 to your roll for each friendly figure engaged with the chosen figure. If you roll a 15 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.

HIDE IN DARKNESS


If you use an Order Marker, you could get 2 attacks this way - one d20 and one normal - so pretty powerful for a 35 point figure. But I am guessing that more likely you'd want to attack with 2 Deepwrym Drow and get two Assassinate attempts on the d20. That's potentially 5 "attacks" per OM - which might seem overpowered - but it takes a good set up - and the Knights/Gruts and do that pretty much all the time.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by obfuscatedhippo

Agreed - War Cry is not a perfect form of bonding - but since you are trying to add bonding to an existing unit I thought this would work nicely (especially since the Deepwyrm are melee only and the Mohicans have the choice of Ranged attacks vs melee).

And Agreed that the Drow need a lot of help to be competitive.

This is a totally different direction but you could go with a d20 power vs Sneak Attack.

STEALTH MOVEMENT
After taking a turn with a Drow Hero or Squad, if at least one Drow figure attacked an opponent's figure, you may move up to two Drow Assassins that did not move or attack this turn up to 6 spaces each.

ASSASSINATE 15
After moving this Drow Assassin, you may choose one adjacent figure and roll the 20-sided die. Add 3 to your roll for each friendly figure engaged with the chosen figure. If you roll a 15 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.

HIDE IN DARKNESS


If you use an Order Marker, you could get 2 attacks this way - one d20 and one normal - so pretty powerful for a 35 point figure. But I am guessing that more likely you'd want to attack with 2 Deepwrym Drow and get two Assassinate attempts on the d20. That's potentially 5 "attacks" per OM - which might seem overpowered - but it takes a good set up - and the Knights/Gruts and do that pretty much all the time.

Sorry if this comes off the wrong way, but since the Drow Assassin is the bonder for them, just moving them on another squad/hero's turn isn't going to make them as useful, or really pull the faction together in the way that Strategic Shift does, though moving 2 like you have does help a bit. An issue with this design is that the way you worded Assassinate doesn't allow it to activate just by moving them. It says "After moving" so it would be an ability you can use on their turn, after moving them, not whenever you move them by any means. If it worked whenever they are moved, you would be able to use it with Talon Grab, or Carry, or after Throwing them, or if you Chain Grabbed them, which I don't think you were intending. It would probably need a lot more text to cover corner cases, and annoying stuff like that.

I actually really like the theme of Assassinate, but I also hate being on the recieving end of auto wounds. Auto wounds are a ruiner of fun.

A rank about auto wounds:

Spoiler Alert!

There are many things in Heroscape that make it a lot of fun, but some of those things are only fun when you give them, and others are only fun if you receive them. Auto wounds are one of those things that feel really fun to give out, but are really annoying to receive, because you can't usually do anything about them. If a unit has a higher defense, like Deathwalker 9000, it's really satisfying to roll all those dice, but it's not something that is always going to hold up. Your opponent knows this, and it's even a running joke that even 1 attack dice can, and usually will be the roll that will ultimately kill DW 9000. Because of this dynamic of keeping hope for the attacker, even in the face of such high defense, playing with, and against DW 9000 can be a fun experience.

Lets take another Figure, Braxas. I bring up Braxas because Braxas doesn't auto wound, Braxas auto destroys. This will compound the issue I'm bringing up here, because it makes it even worse. I hate playing against Braxas. I despise Braxas. Braxes does not care how much defense your Squads have, or whether they have Hide in Darkness, or if Raelin is literally next to them, Brazas is goiong to rip through all of your Squads. Because of this, Braxas can be really fun to play. You can go spraying acid through your opponent's entire army, and it can a really great time. While you are having fun doing this, all your opponent is thinking is how annoying this freaking dragon is, and how stupid it is that it can on an 8 or higher, which is really easy to get, destroy almost anything they want. On the rare chance that Braxas also just destroys your fully Cragged, and Thorgim spirited, Seige, just because of the whims of the RNG Dice gods, it's one of the most frustrating, and rage inducing things in Heroscape. I don't like the design of Braxas.

I think that Auto wounds are a very interesting idea, but one that I will never willingly put into one of my own designs. They have a place in Heroscape, but they aren't usually fun for both sides of the equation, so I want to personally avoid them if at all possible. There are a few other things that are irritating in Heroscape, but nothing is quite as bad as auto wounds, or Auto destroys... except maybe the Varja. The spiders are can a little annoying, but they aren't as bad with just 1 random order marker, and a pretty low chance to mitigate it, it doesn't ruin your game if it happens. When the Varja does it, it can decide games, especially if it gets to your start zone. Not saying it's not balanced, just that it's annoying, and makes the game loose it's fun for the receiving end.

To be honest, I was really happy with the design of the Drow Assassin when I posted her here, and was hoping to even submit them to the SoV within the week, unless some glaring problem I hadn't seen was pointed out. (I even have a text file with the entire submission post ready to go, with availability and everything.) While I appreciate the interest, and creatively shown, I'm not looking to drastically rework them.

To everyone else, Thank you for your feedback, and feel free to leave anything more you really wanted to say. As of now I'm not going to submit them, because I'm going to start testing them with Hero bonding as well. It seems to be a popular suggestion, I don't have anything major against it, and it really would help the Drow faction out. I'll shoot for around 10 - 20 test games, and some preset scenarios to see if it changes anything major, and if it all goes well, I'll submit in a week or so. If anyone is interested in testing them themselves, feel free to message me your play test reports, as I would love to see how other people use them. They are still priority targets, so if they still fall as easily as Deepwrym (which they usually do, since they have the same defense, and defensive ability) and don't consistently get some good setups for the Heros, I'll probably keep them at 35. The stronger heros will distract from them a bit, so maybe it will make them survive a bit better. I'm thinking that perhaps Peloth was priced the way he was with future bonding in mind. At Rank D, I'm not worried about making him any better due to bonding, but I'm interested in Estivara's potential to be better with Bonding. She's in a pretty decent place at Rank B, so we'll see how things go.

[obfuscatedhippo]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

To be honest, I was really happy with the design of the Drow Assassin when I posted her here, and was hoping to even submit them to the SoV within the week, unless some glaring problem I hadn't seen was pointed out. (I even have a text file with the entire submission post ready to go, with availability and everything.) While I appreciate the interest, and creatively shown, I'm not looking to drastically rework them.

Apologies, good luck with your custom.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It

To be honest, I was really happy with the design of the Drow Assassin when I posted her here, and was hoping to even submit them to the SoV within the week, unless some glaring problem I hadn't seen was pointed out. (I even have a text file with the entire submission post ready to go, with availability and everything.) While I appreciate the interest, and creatively shown, I'm not looking to drastically rework them.

After reading all the comments above, I'm with you on this. I withdraw my previous suggestion that you make them Uncommon. I do suggest you consider Shadow Ambush, as opposed to Sneak Attack 2, to give them more flexibility. This would really encourage drafting them with the little used, but thematically compatible, Mika Connour - in my view a good thing. Otherwise, upon reflection, I wouldn't change a thing.

Good luck with this.