The Book of Groot (Baby)

[dok]

I agree; it's a very very strong card, because carried largely mitigates the range limitation on the bonding. The attack ain't much, but free turns are free turns, and TATL gives him decent survivability.

If I had to choose between carried and bonding, I think I'm inclined to choose bonding, if only because it makes him less of a suicide missile and more of a support piece, which is probably good. Alternatively, leave carried but require that he cannot be placed into engagement with enemy figures using carried.

That said, thematically Groot seems like more of a companion than a sidekick.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by dok

I agree; it's a very very strong card, because carried largely mitigates the range limitation on the bonding. The attack ain't much, but free turns are free turns, and TATL gives him decent survivability.

If I had to choose between carried and bonding, I think I'm inclined to choose bonding, if only because it makes him less of a suicide missile and more of a support piece, which is probably good. Alternatively, leave carried but require that he cannot be placed into engagement with enemy figures using carried.

That said, thematically Groot seems like more of a companion than a sidekick.

What sort of price are we looking at then? I'm okay with that change to the power, though if we go with the unrestricted version it'll need a new name. Also massively happy to take suggestions on a new Class - Sidekick never felt right to me. I'd love to go with Companion, but in C3G that's apparently reserved for pets, so.... thoughts?

[dok]

I dunno; for me companion fits here. Yeah, he's not a pet but... kinda a mascot?

Another idea for an adjustment (instead of not allowing carry into engagement) would be to just say he can't attempt leaving engagement attacks. That gets rid of all the suicide missile effects pretty cleanly; you want to just use him to ping for that extra attack of 3 each turn.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by dok

I dunno; for me companion fits here. Yeah, he's not a pet but... kinda a mascot?

Another idea for an adjustment (instead of not allowing carry into engagement) would be to just say he can't attempt leaving engagement attacks. That gets rid of all the suicide missile effects pretty cleanly; you want to just use him to ping for that extra attack of 3 each turn.

I'm... not entirely sure what you're suggesting. You're saying make it so he can't make LEAs at all? Feels like an odd figure to have that effect... not feeling thematic to me.

[dok]

I agree it's not super-thematic on its face but it would kill all desire to throw him into engagement to block attacks on other figures (since you could just move out of that engagement for free). It would clean up the gameplay, even if it's not obviously fitting on theme.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by dok

I agree it's not super-thematic on its face but it would kill all desire to throw him into engagement to block attacks on other figures (since you could just move out of that engagement for free). It would clean up the gameplay, even if it's not obviously fitting on theme.

Yeah, if there's no thematic justification, that's a really odd thing to throw on there. I quite like Groot tying people up on occasion. I'd rather make the fix to say you can't Carry him into engagement... and perhaps make Ragtag Sidekick before the normal turn, rather than after, so you can't really slingshot him.

[Scapemage]

2 range and not being able to make Leaving Engagement Attacks feels like a big clash to me. I like the suggestion of preventing placement into engagement after being carried, if weakening the power level is something we're after. The theme is really strong here and I don't think that a caveat like that would weaken it in any way. While Baby Groot does enjoy running out into the action, he'd prefer to do it himself rather than being placed I feel.

[Dysole]

I share the concerns. I'll try to post more when I have time.

~Dysole, who hasn't broken out the checklist in a while

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

The thing is, being Carried is fairly necessary thematically, and Ragtag Sidekick is necessary to make him worth using.

I don't really follow the logic there, Atom is an A ranked figure and that is essentially entirely on the back of having Carried. Carried is also a power that basically gets better the more cards have it / a version of it. Not saying you can't pair Carried with other stuff, but it is a very powerful ability that shouldn't be underestimated.

A thought, could the Sidekick power be scaled down to an attack only turn? That gets rid of both the suicide lockdown play and the weird mechanics overlap going on in a very organic way.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Yeah, if there's no thematic justification, that's a really odd thing to throw on there. I quite like Groot tying people up on occasion.

Yeah, I agree.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I'd rather make the fix to say you can't Carry him into engagement... and perhaps make Ragtag Sidekick before the normal turn, rather than after, so you can't really slingshot him.

I like that. Perhaps only allow him to attack figures that are engaged with friendlies, a-la Yukio?

RAGTAG TEAM-UP (or some other name)
If no Unique Heroes in your army have the same Species or Class, then after revealing an Order Marker on any Unique Hero you control and before taking a turn with that Hero, if Groot is within 6 clear sight spaces of that Hero, you may take an immediate turn with Groot. During this turn, Groot can only attack figures engaged with that Hero. After using this special power, you may only take an additional turn with the figure whose Order Marker was revealed.

SMALL CARRIED
Once per player turn, before moving a friendly adjacent Small Unique Hero, if Groot is not engaged, you may choose that Hero for Groot's Small Carried special power. After moving the chosen figure, you may place Groot on an unoccupied space adjacent to the chosen figure. Groot cannot be placed into engagement with Small Carried.

TOO ADORABLE TO KILL

Still feels pretty strong (because generic bonding is always strong), but I think it closes most of the more exploitative ways to play him, which allows the price to stay pretty low.

(I may have borked up the wording on the "backwards bonding no additional turns" stuff, but I couldn't remember which cards have that wording so I didn't have a reference to go by.)

[Yodaking]

Just wanted to point out that I could justify the non-LEA idea from a thematic point of view. A Leaving Engagement Attack is a free attack of opportunity, to take advantage of if you must first be situationally aware of it and then immedietly act on a closing window of opportunity, Baby Groot does not seem overly cued in to his surroundings for the most part. I could definitely see Baby Groot being either completely oblivious to or simply ambivalent to an opponent walking away from him. Not that I have a strong position on that direction for the design either way.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Just wanted to point out that I could justify the non-LEA idea from a thematic point of view. A Leaving Engagement Attack is a free attack of opportunity, to take advantage of if you must first be situationally aware of it and then immedietly act on a closing window of opportunity, Baby Groot does not seem overly cued in to his surroundings for the most part. I could definitely see Baby Groot being either completely oblivious to or simply ambivalent to an opponent walking away from him. Not that I have a strong position on that direction for the design either way.

You probably could justify most things, but it still feels like a really bloody weird thing for this design of all to have.



As for dok's idea of the more Nite Owl-esque bonding... I love it, apart from my one concern that it makes him only really work well with melee fighters, and Rocket's a ranged combatant. However, if we could tweak it like this:


RAGTAG MASCOT
If no Unique Heroes in your army have the same Species or Class, then after revealing an Order Marker on any Unique Hero you control and after taking a turn with that Hero, if Groot is within 6 clear sight spaces of that Hero, you may take an immediate turn with Groot. During this turn, Groot can only attack figures engaged with that Hero, or, if that Hero is a Raccoon, any Unique Hero you control. After using this special power, you may only take an additional turn with the figure whose Order Marker was revealed.


***************

This eliminated the problem of not working well with Rocket, while actually giving him the specific reason to pair with Rocket I've been looking for for a while now. (I also feel as though, with the engagement restriction he now has, 'after' is feeling a little better.)
So, putting it all together, that leaves us with something like:


NAME = GROOT

SPECIES = FLORA COLOSSUS
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = MASCOT? COMPANION?
PERSONALITY = ENTHUSIASTIC

SIZE/HEIGHT = SMALL 2

LIFE = 3

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 2
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3

POINTS = 65/75? (I'd like his price to end in 5, again to fit with Rocket)

RAGTAG MASCOT
If no Unique Heroes in your army have the same Species or Class, then after revealing an Order Marker on any Unique Hero you control and after taking a turn with that Hero, if Groot is within 6 clear sight spaces of that Hero, you may take an immediate turn with Groot. During this turn, Groot can only attack figures engaged with that Hero, or, if that Hero is a Raccoon, any Unique Hero you control. After using this special power, you may only take an additional turn with the figure whose Order Marker was revealed.

CARRIED
Once per player turn, before moving a friendly adjacent Small or Medium Unique Hero, if Groot is not engaged, you may choose that Small or Medium Unique Hero for Groot's Carried special power. After moving the chosen figure, you may place Groot on any unoccupied space adjacent to the chosen figure.

TOO ADORABLE TO KILL
An opponent's figure cannot target Groot for an attack or choose him for a special power if it could instead target another figure you control, and may not make leaving engagement attacks against Groot. Cruel, Nihilistic, and Sadistic figures are not affected by this special power.