Valiant Bonus & AE Drop

[Revdyer]

Will T, although, I think, we agree on the resulting decision, I do disagree on the premise. I do not ask for the rules to be "in the real world as much as possible." All I ask is for internal consistency. I'm not sure which one is more difficult, given our limited knowledge of the real world, after all. But, all I ask of the game is to be the game on a clear and steady field.

[dnutt99]

I think I will have to switch positions on this one. If your non-valiant figures are destroyed,... you really no longer control them because they don't exist. Whereas the AE do exist but haven't been deployed for battle. It also goes with the 'simplicity' theme. Sometimes these things are so easy they're hard . The AE are still part of your army, you control them (even if only by the roll of the d20), and they are non-valiant.

Like I've mentioned, (or some have seen), I have been wrong but in the end it seems that these situations are always ruled by the simplest answer. (Not to imply that if the ruling went the other way it wouldn't be simple either!) I'm about 90% sure that Homba is correct on this one, but I will stay tuned and if sent to WOTC for "clarification" I will be watching.

[ej]

I read this: " PS- Thanks & well done to those responsible for getting the boards back up!!! " on page 2 right before hitting the link for page 3 and... guess what?

[Will T]

Rev,
The comments about the real world were not meant to be part of my argument, only an aside describing my own litmus test for making decisions when there are ambiguities in the game.
The real world I am talking about is here on Earth. When you said "... given our limited knowledge of the real world ...", were you refering to the "real" game world of Valhalla, or to the Real universe (in a theological sense)?

As another aside, I used to be an Airborne Elite myself (US Army Airborne Ranger) and I'm here just making sure the the AE getting all the respect they are due.

Peace be with you.

[Revdyer]

dnutt99, I love the way you put "clarification" in quotation marks in regard to WotC.

[ej]

Originally Posted by QBakies

ej, I see what you are trying to say but there is a distinct difference. Once all units associated with an Army card are destroyed that Army card, for all intents and purposes, no longer exists so it's impossible for you to control it. However, as long as the unit is not destroyed it is still a part of your Army and under your control. The function of you rolling the d20 at the beginning of every round is you controlling the drop of the AE. Whether you are successful with your roll or not is irrelevant.

I'm down with that, and I'm sure that's how it will be ruled, if it's ever brought before the WOTC Imperious Leader.

[Doc_Savage]

Originally Posted by Homba

The fact that you don't "physically control" the unit (at least not more than rolling the d20 for them) until they drop doesn't matter. Until they're destroyed, they're part of your army and thus an "army card you control."

Homba, I am with you right up until the end. Just take away that last sentence…

I thought for sure you were say that the Valiant Army Bonus works as long as the AE are on their card.

We know if figures are removed from the battlefield they no longer count against the bonus, are no longer figures that you control. We also know that there are ways to get figures on their cards back onto the battlefield via Marro Warrior clone or the Sturla revive glyph. A figures potential to be on the battlefield is not the same as the figure being on the battlefield. Figures under your control are ones you can control – move, attack, etc. on the battlefield. I believe that if all the figures you have on the battlefield right now are Valiant, the 4th gets the bonus. Figures off the battlefield don’t count.

This is my opinion and I have been wrong before…. stupid door plague…

[dnutt99]

Originally Posted by Doc_Savage

Homba, I am with you right up until the end. Just take away that last sentence…

I thought for sure you were say that the Valiant Army Bonus works as long as the AE are on their card.

We know if figures are removed from the battlefield they no longer count against the bonus, are no longer figures that you control. We also know that there are ways to get figures on their cards back onto the battlefield via Marro Warrior clone or the Sturla revive glyph. A figures potential to be on the battlefield is not the same as the figure being on the battlefield. Figures under your control are ones you can control – move, attack, etc. on the battlefield. I believe that if all the figures you have on the battlefield right now are Valiant, the 4th gets the bonus. Figures off the battlefield don’t count.

This is my opinion and I have been wrong before…. stupid door plague…

, . . . , . . . , . . .

Those were some of my original thoughts. This is the first time I even considered the affect of bringing units back "from their cards". And seeing as how that's where the AE remain until the drop, it is a point to think about!

I'm probably at a 60/40 now,...(though I'd be hard pressed at this point to tell you which is which! )

[ej]

Originally Posted by Doc_Savage

We know if figures are removed from the battlefield they no longer count against the bonus, are no longer figures that you control. We also know that there are ways to get figures on their cards back onto the battlefield via Marro Warrior clone or the Sturla revive glyph. A figures potential to be on the battlefield is not the same as the figure being on the battlefield. Figures under your control are ones you can control – move, attack, etc. on the battlefield. I believe that if all the figures you have on the battlefield right now are Valiant, the 4th gets the bonus. Figures off the battlefield don’t count.

This is my opinion and I have been wrong before…. stupid door plague…

I'm down with that, and I'm sure that's how it will be ruled, if it's ever brought before the WOTC Grand Poobah.

[Quicksilver62160]

If you want to get really technical with the ruling on the card we could identify it as such. Since their ability is called "The Drop" and not "The Jump" I would imagine that they would be circling the battlefield waiting for a chance to parachute down. So they are not technically on the battlefield but above the field of play.

[dnutt99]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver62160

If you want to get really technical with the ruling on the card we could identify it as such. Since their ability is called "The Drop" and not "The Jump" I would imagine that they would be circling the battlefield waiting for a chance to parachute down. So they are not technically on the battlefield but above the field of play.

Now THAT's Simplicity at it's finest!

[davidlhsl]

DISCLAIMER: My own intuition on these rules questions have proven wrong in more cases than my fragile ego would care to admit, so I prefer to suppress those past mistakes and instead insert my foot more fully in my mouth. You have been warned.

It seems the confusing point in this issue centers on what it means to actually control a unit. A point has been made that since you still command the Airborne Elite, you are in control.

Let me offer a counter argument. Until the Airborne Elite actually drop onto the battlefield, you are basically at the whim of the 20-sided die. Yes, you command them, but you don't actually have any options regarding the placement of those units until their draft number comes up, so to speak.

Control, in my mind, suggests the ability to actually influence the behavior of a unit. It seems to me that the Airborne Elite are under your "command", but they are under the "control" of the 20-sided die.

Once you make your roll, you then have the option to place the units. Thus, you have then been given control of the Airborne Elite. If you decline the drop, you have essentially forfeited your control of that unit until the next favorable roll comes along. Therefore, making the roll and declining only give you the control during that brief moment when you actually make your roll.

My hunch is that the valiant bonus applies.

-David