Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[dok]

If we're going to have markers (and I think we should), then I'm not seeing why the class change is necessary or useful there. It makes it feel like champion synergy with a champion recruitment power that, for some reason, needs a marker.

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by dok

If we're going to have markers (and I think we should), then I'm not seeing why the class change is necessary or useful there. It makes it feel like champion synergy with a champion recruitment power that, for some reason, needs a marker.

My understanding is that we'd do either class change or markers and we're discussing now how we'd do class change whatsit.

~Dysole, with nothing to really add at this moment

[dok]

Sorry, I should have quoted, but I was responding specifically to laughing matter's recent post.

[laughing matter]

It was mainly so you could draft guys like Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, etc. and save a few Markers, since you wouldn't need to put any on their card.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

As for the 'change class' concept, I think each new card is going to need to be able to change several different classes or MM will always be played with the same few figures.

Alright, let's expand upon your idea here.

JUSTICE LEAGUE 3 (Martian Manhunter II)
All Champion, Officer, and Vigilante Heroes you control have the class of Defender for the entire game, instead of what is on their card.

JUSTICE LEAGUE 2 (Cyborg II)
All Scientist and Archer Heroes you control have the class of Defender for the entire game, instead of what is on their card.

JUSTICE LEAGUE 2 (Wonder Woman II)
All Warrior and Valiant Heroes you control have the class of Defender for the entire game, instead of what is on their card.

JUSTICE LEAGUE 1 (Doctor Fate II)
At the start of the game, you may choose one Unique Hero you control. For the entire game, the chosen Hero's class is Defender, instead of what is on their card.
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Martian Manhunter: Superman I, Superman II, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Booster Gold, Wally West, Batman I, Batman II, Black Canary, Batman(Grayson), Huntress, Hal Jordan, John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner

Cyborg: Barry Allen, Atom, Firestorm, Green Arrow, Red Arrow

Wonder Woman: Aquaman II, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Vixen, Aquaman I, Steel, Zauriel, Mister Terrific

Doctor Fate: 1 other Hero
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This version leaves nobody out. The more points you have, the bigger the League you can run. All are receiving the benefits. Doctor Fate will be the X factor, who can bring in 1 person who doesn't fall under any of those classes and personalities(there's only 4-5 thematic Justice League members who don't according to the list, and would help future proof.).

I tried connecting each person with at least 1 of the 2 groups being thematic to the character. If we can't add anything to Wonder Woman II, a Hawkman II could fill the same Warrior/Valiant role.
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What synergies could be offered:

Martian Manhunter: +1 D20, Clear Sight, Control Denial

Cyborg: Boom Tube, Initiative

Wonder Woman: Free Attack within Range

Dr. Fate: Once per game Resurrection? The possibilities are almost endless with him...

Batman Utility Glyph: Order Marker Management

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by laughing matter

It was mainly so you could draft guys like Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, etc. and save a few Markers, since you wouldn't need to put any on their card.

It's not a bad idea, but it would take up a bit more space on the cards to make it happen. I also don't think it's necessary to have both, because Champions are pretty high in point value as it is, so having them called out and having several markers just seems like a waste. Just markers or just classes would probably be more efficient and cover your army for a standard game.

From what I'm getting thus far, there's more in the marker camp than the Class/Personality camp. But for the sake of hashing out each method thoroughly, we should give Class/Personalities a chance to be fleshed out and see what we come up with. It's been stated as johnny's favorite, so coming up with at least a decent fallback option isn't a bad plan.

[laughing matter]

I like both camps equally. I really like the Champion class change idea though, mostly because it fits the theme of the Justice League being the greatest heroes of their world, and a little bit because it was my idea. (And probably the best thing I've actually contributed to this)

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by laughing matter

I like both camps equally. I really like the Champion class change idea though, mostly because it fits the theme of the Justice League being the greatest heroes of their world, and a little bit because it was my idea. (And probably the best thing I've actually contributed to this)

I just fear that adopting the Champions may lose sight of the Justice League.

Mongul has a great Champion synergy, that I feel won't be passed up.

Allen the Alien, Cecil Stedman, and Sif also offer direct benefit to Champions. While not as unthematic as Mongul, it's as if we are making the Justice League Adventurers. I just feel there's too much synergy for Champions as is, to all of a sudden adopt it as their own.

Whereas Defender(or whatever new class) would be something pretty much untapped, and if it is replacing the class on the card, it'll make Justice League characters the focus, as well as removing any potential for abuse.

[laughing matter]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

I just fear that adopting the Champions may lose sight of the Justice League.

Not to be a butt, but six ( you could argue 7 if you count the time Invincible met Batman, sort of) of the current Champions are Justice League members. I get what you mean though, they do have some pretty good synergy already, and all of them are powerful figures.

Mongul has a great Champion synergy, that I feel won't be passed up.

Mongul's synergy requires you to choose at the start of the game to choose the first time, so I think that creative wording could prevent him from choosing a figure you made a Champion.

Also Mongul is a pretty big chunk of points too, so I think he's be a pretty impractical draft with Martian Manhunter.

Allen the Alien,

Valid point, though since he gets the same boost against Champions, if Martian Manhunter doesn't end up blocking mind control/Allen is out of Martian Manhunter's range for blocking I would immediately Mind Control him. Still a very good point though!

Cecil Stedman,

Again, basically everything I said about MONGUL with the addition of, Cecil can choose any Unique Hero at the start of the game, Champions just get an attack boost if he chooses them.

Also, I personally think he works better in an Agent heavy Army than as an addition to a Champion Army. And BTW he and Mongul are keystone figures. You build your Champion army around one of them, not both, since they're kind of OM hubs for Champions.

and Sif also offer direct benefit to Champions

Sif's power only benefits Sif, and only works once a Champion has DIED, and is also semi expensive. I see no concern to be had here.

While not as unthematic as Mongul, it's as if we are making the Justice League Adventurers. I just feel there's too much synergy for Champions as is, to all of a sudden adopt it as their own.

I would beg to differ; and why adventurers as a comparison?

Whereas Defender(or whatever new class) would be something pretty much untapped, and if it is replacing the class on the card, it'll make Justice League characters the focus, as well as removing any potential for abuse.

Untapped as in no synergy whatsoever, and tbh if you really had to go with a synergy free class, protector seems like a better fit. Defender sounds more like a sports position to me.

I think I've made my point about why I think almost all of the current Champion synergy seems impractical in a Justice League build (as it seems to be goingat least) to me.

[Arkham]

I'm not saying it's impossible to use Champions. I'm well aware of how many Justice League members are currently Champions(I gave my own breakdown, and Yoda has listed them out several times).

If we jump through the right hoop in order to avoid Mongul and Stedman, then sure, it's doable. However, I will point something out with Mongul. As you said, there's several Justice League Champions right now. These new designs would all need to be whatever they are turning everyone else into, so in this case, Champions. So Mongul could just choose one of the 6+ current figures, or any new figure, as his initial Champion, and if that person dies, he can choose any other figure that was made Champion. So that's not really avoidable by any means that I'm seeing.

Protector would work just fine.

[IAmBatman]

Sock, great job giving this forward momentum and great idea to fully explore each idea! Here are some thoughts on Class-based synergy:

1. I think the best class to use would be an entirely new one, to avoid any concerns with or issues with crossovers for other powers. This would also avoid restricting design space based on other, preexisting classes. I think something like "League Member" would do the trick, since that's what they actually call themselves. Or "Justice Leaguer" if folks don't like "League Member." The issues with Champion and Defender have already been discussed plenty in this and other threads, so I won't go there, just suffice to say there are lots of benefits to creating a wholly new class and cutting away other potential, distracting synergies.

2. The great part about this approach is that it can be coupled with Viegon's idea that there are going to be a lot of 2.0 versions of a lot of characters. These 2.0 versions can then either end up being hubs for this synergy or just passive recipients if they just come with the League Member (or w/e) class. So, for instance, if there's a Cyborg and Wonder Woman 2.0 that we want involved in Justice League army builds, regardless of whether they have any direct synergy powers, going with class-based synergies lets us give them the appropriate class and therefore include them in those builds very easily.

3. A whole bunch of different class-changing powers seems awkward to me. I think less is more in this regard and the fewer you can get away with, the better. Maybe one that calls in a few iconic classes the way you have with Martian Manhunter and one X-Factor one (for everyone who wants to make sure Thor's invited ). I think between two of them like that and the idea of 2.0 versions coming with the built-in class, it'd more than do the trick.

4. The biggest thing to focus on to sell this direction, IMO, is what synergies will be offered and what the specific powers will be. I think theme is going to be a bit of a challenge at times with this, because you'll have to be vigilant about asking: Why does this work better with League Members? Why can X Hero only do this if someone is in the Justice League with him or her? I'm not sure that's clear for all of the proposed powers just yet, but for them to truly excel, it'll have to be answered.

5. Having said all of the above, I think a decent focus might be on Martian Manhunter 2.0 as the hub with the power that calls out a lot of specific classes, and the X-Factor one could be about anybody, but Batman 3.0 or Cyborg 2.0 seem like good candidates. I would focus on each of those designs and designing them just as viable, fun cards all in and of themselves, with synergy powers that encourage building an army around X class synergies. Then see if there's anyone else you want to build a 2.0/3.0 version of that has X class and whether you want them to add synergy powers or just receive them.

[Yodaking]

If the class synergy approach is going to be a slow build where we eventually have a bunch of 2.0 versions of characters with the new class and each one may recruit a new member to the JL, then I think we should focus in on the first 7 and slowly build the league out from there as more 2.0 figures get made. These are who I think of as the most iconic first 7, actual comic book chronology may be different but these are the ones I'd like to focus on assembling to start.

1. Martian Manhunter 2.0 - League Member
2. Superman - Champion (x2)
3. Batman - Vigilante (x2)
4. Wonder Woman - Champion
5. Flash - Scientist (Barry)/Champion (Wally)/Scientist (John)
6. Aquaman - King/Warrior
7. Green Lantern - Officer (x4)

That is 6 different classes. So maybe have MM 2.0 recruit 3 of them (Officer, Champion, & Scientist?), and either Batman 3.0 or WW 2.0 recruit the other 3 (Vigilante, Warrior, & King?). Then we only need 2 new cards to get the first 7 together. That would also bring in......

Spoiler Alert!

8. Shazam - Champion
9. Booster Gold - Champion
10. Firestorm - Scientist
11. Atom - Scientist
12. Black Canary - Vigilante
13. Dick Grayson Batman - Vigilante
14. Huntress - Vigilante
15. Vixen - Warrior
16. Hawkgirl - Warrior
17. Hawkman - Warrior

Cyborg is a relatively new member for me so let his 2.0 card be a League Member that recruits some new members (Archer, Protector, Adventurer?).

Spoiler Alert!

18. Cyborg - League Member
19. Green Arrow - Archer
20. Red Arrow - Archer
21. Red Tornado - Protector
22. Plastic Man - Adventurer

That is 3 cards, each recruiting 3 classes that gives us 29 total JL related cards to play with. As time goes on, more 2.0 cards could give us even more members by recruiting different classes.

Then again, King only brings in one card and it is just a different version of Aquaman. So leave King out of the 'first 7' and replace it with Archer to bring Green Arrow & Black Canary in at the same time since they already work well together. Then Cyborg could recruit an Adventurer. Later down the line we could maybe have a WW that does a Royal Recruitment and brings in King (Aquaman), Prince (Etrigan), & Princess (Ice).

1. Martian Manhunter 2.0 - League Member recruits Champions, Officers, & Scientists

2. Batman 3.0 - League Member recruits Vigilantes, Archers, & Warriors

3. Wonder Woman - Champion, 2.0 - League Member recruits Kings, Princess, & Princes
4. Superman (x2) - Champion
5. Flash - Scientist (Barry)/Champion (Wally)/ Scientist (John)
6. Aquaman - Warrior/King
7. Green Lantern (x4) - Officer
8. Shazam - Champion
9. Booster Gold - Champion
10. Firestorm - Scientist
11. Atom - Scientist
12. Black Canary - Vigilante
13. Dick Grayson Batman - Vigilante
14. Huntress - Vigilante
15. Vixen - Warrior
16. Hawkgirl - Warrior
17. Hawkman - Warrior
18. Green Arrow (x2) - Archer
19. Red Arrow - Archer

20. Etrigan - Prince
21. Ice - Princess

22. Cyborg 2.0 - League Member recruits Protectors, Adventurers, & Guardians
23. Red Tornado - Protector
24. Plastic Man - Adventurer
25. Zauriel - Guardian

Marvel has a bunch of interesting Protectors, Adventurers, & Guardians that Cyborg could then recruit for those looking for cross over fun.

Cross Over 'Good Guys':
Balder - Adventurer
Human Torch - Adventurer
Iceman - Adventurer
Invisible Woman - Adventurer
Iron Man - Adventurer
Jocasta - Adventurer
She-Hulk - Adventurer
Silver Surfer - Adventurer
The Thing - Adventurer
Wasp - Adventurer
Hawkeye II - Archer
Beta Ray Bill - Champion
Capt. Marvel - Champion
Hercules - Champion
Invincible - Champion
Thor - Champion
Heimdall - Guardian
Iron Man Hulkbuster - Guardian
Black Panther - King
Odin - King
Namor - King
Angel - Protector
Capt. Marvel - Protector
Colossus - Protector
Falcon - Protector
Iron Man Mark III - Protector
Shadowcat - Protector
Ant-Man - Scientist
Beast - Scientist
Black Knight - Scientist
Giant Man - Scientist
Mr. Fantastic - Scientist
Yellowjacket (x2) - Scientist
Daredevil - Vigilante
Scarlet Spider - Vigilante
Fandral - Warrior
Hogun - Warrior
Volstagg - Warrior

Since this is a slow build, a later 2.0 card could be Dr. Fate (Mystic) bringing in Zatanna. Toss Celebrity in for Fire since WW is bringing in Ice & Recluse (Obsidian, Dr. Manhattan too!).

26. Dr. Fate 2.0 - League Member recruits Magicians, Recluses, & Celebrities
27. Zatanna - Magician
28. Obsidian - Recluse
29. Fire - Celebrity

Supergirl 2.0 could then finish it out.

30. Supergirl 2.0 - League Member recruits Crime Fighters, Sidekicks, Engineers
31. Blue Beetle - Crime Fighter
32. Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) - Sidekick
33. Steel - Engineer

That is 6 new cards in total, each one recruiting 3 classes into the JL. Starting with MM 2.0 & Batman 3.0. Next up would be Cyborg 2.0 & WW 2.0. Then Dr. Fate 2.0 & Supergirl 2.0 would eventually wrap it all up in a little bow.

Addition Cross Over Fun:
Wonder Man - Celebrity
Nightcrawler - Recluse
Cloak - Recluse
Dagger - Crime Fighter
Firestar - Crime Fighter
Iron Man Mark IV - Crime Fighter
Scarlet Spider - Crime Fighter
Speedball - Crime Fighter
Spider-Girl - Crime Fighter
Spider-Man (x3) - Crime Fighter
Deathloc - Engineer
Armor - Sidekick
Jubilee - Sidekick