Demonic vs Fantastical

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by DrRansom

And what do(/would) you do with your kids in regard potential Satanic imagry?

Tell them the truth? There's nothing Satanic about Heroscape figures. They're little pieces of plastic. They represent bad beings, but are not in and of themselves bad.

[Kroc]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Tell them the truth? There's nothing Satanic about Heroscape figures. They're little pieces of plastic. They represent bad beings, but are not in and of themselves bad.

I hate to jump in here again since I am not a Christian, and so don't have a proper stake in this question. But I feel I have something to say.

The main thing that makes something "demonic" is its ability to coax people to act immorrally. In other words make a case that being evil is better than being good. A plastic figure can not argue for being evil.

Perhaps if there was an evil "broken" unit in Heroscape then it could, but there are no broken units in HS.

Especially due to the excellent balance in Heroscape I think this game is actually a good lesson for children. The forces of evil are as strong as the forces of good, furthermore one of the strengths of the forces of good is the ability of disparate groups to work together. Much like LOTR if all the non-evil forces work together then they can overcome evil. Isn't this the lesson you would want a moral child to learn?

Assuming they look on a silly game with a bunch of plastic figures as a battle of good versus evil.

[yari commander]

Ok im christian not hard core christian but church once a month christian. I have at some points questioned my morality because of me liking to play the necromancer class im my rpgs or i found playing evil in KOTOR to be more fun then being good. After a while it swiched i stated to like playing good more because it was so satisfying to be the good guys holding out against evil and then beat evil into the ground.

Actually I was just talking to my friends today about wether they liked to play as the locust or the cog in Gears Of War 2. One of my friends said he liked playing the locust better, I asked him why and he said they look cooler. It wasn't because he is "evil" he just played what he thought looked cooler. So in summary i think you should play what is more fun for you not using little plastic figures because the are "evil" just seems silly to me now.

[DrRansom]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Tell them the truth? There's nothing Satanic about Heroscape figures.

Sorry If I was not clear. I did not mean to insunuate that Heroscape is at all Satanic.

If you don't mind me asking, I was interested in how you would deal with satanic imagry/customs that your kids might pick up. I mean at some point your kid is likely to wind up with a T-shirt or a book or something that you will find "satanic". Where is that line for you and how will you deal with it when the line is crossed?

For instance, I was a pretty avid concert goer for some years and people would frequently throw up the old devil sign. I'd pump a fist or do the Hawaiian "I love you" sign when I got a little too hyped. I've taken my oldest to a few pretty raucus concerts as well. I've taught him what the "I love you sign" is but haven't talked about the devil sign yet. I enjoy this conversation and don't mean to be bashing anyone so if it sounds that way, please know I just enjoy conversations about parenting, culture and spirituality.

Originally Posted by Kroc

I hate to jump in here again since I am not a Christian, and so don't have a proper stake in this question. But I feel I have something to say.
The main thing that makes something "demonic" is its ability to coax people to act immorrally. In other words make a case that being evil is better than being good. A plastic figure can not argue for being evil.
Perhaps if there was an evil "broken" unit in Heroscape then it could, but there are no broken units in HS.

Thanks for jumping in. Your non-Christian opinion is most welcome. And I agree with your assesment of the game that it places no wieght on the strength of evil to dominate the game. On the subject of balance in the storyline (open the wide potential for entirely new philosophical discussions) I am decidedly an optomist that sees the good in every outcome.

Originally Posted by yari commander

..I have at some points questioned my morality because of me liking to play the necromancer class im my rpgs or i found playing evil in KOTOR to be more fun then being good...[it is]satisfying to be the good guys holding out against evil and then beat evil into the ground... I asked him why and he said they look cooler. It wasn't because he is "evil" he just played what he thought looked cooler..

Good points. On the record I think that force lightning is the coolest abillity to play in Kotor (only available for evil characters) but for storyline satisfaction (and on the optomist note above) the good ending just feels the most satisfying.

Regardless, games are a safe place to test out theories and enactments of good and evil. In my view of things playing an evil character in a game doesn't equate a real world evil act (disobeying God or hurting (real) people). It's got to have a "real world" bad consequence to be evil.

Peace

[EternalThanos86]

Originally Posted by DrRansom

Regardless, games are a safe place to test out theories and enactments of good and evil. In my view of things playing an evil character in a game doesn't equate a real world evil act (disobeying God or hurting (real) people). It's got to have a "real world" bad consequence to be evil.

Peace

Great point DrRansom. I appreciate your honest look at the effect of satanic imagery on children.

I have one quick comment about this last part. Personally, and I also believe biblically, evil is not limited to things that have "real world" consequences. I do NOT mean that there are not consequences for doing wrong things. What I mean is that what makes something evil is NOT dependent on the consequence (that would be philosophically called consequentialism or in the American context, pragmatism). Evil is defined, as I see in the Bible, as anything that goes against God's commands or character.

Now the reason I am writing is not to make anyone feel bad (or stupid), but that I think this definition helps 'Scapers divide the line between demonic and fantastical by looking at more than just consequence, but taking into account thoughts, feelings, and purposes regarding why we act the way we do. Then, we can answer the question, "Are we acting as we ought to act based on what we know about God and His desire for our lives?"

~ET86, sincerly and humbly.

[NecroBlade]

If the T-Shirt or book is about worshiping Satan, then I would have to deny my child that particular item and examine where the influences for that sort of thing are in his/her life. If it just has "devil-like" imagery and some evil characters, as long as my child just thinks it "looks cool" and is "rooting for the good guys" it's fine by me. Heck, they can root for the bad guys as long as they don't try to be the bad guys, and I think I could determine whether or not that will be the outcome based on the above.

[DrRansom]

Originally Posted by EternalThanos86

..Personally, and I also believe biblically, evil is not limited to things that have "real world" consequences. ..what makes something evil is NOT dependent on the consequence ...~ET86, sincerly and humbly.

Hey great point and I whole heartedly agree, let me revise my statement to say that taking the role of evil in a game is not necesarilly evil but any act of doing something that you know would not make God happy, or hurts someone else would be.

When I wrote previously I was thinking of both Rom 14:23 (whatever we do outside of the realms of what we believe (faith) God desires, is sin) and 1 Cor 10:23 (All things are lawful, but not all things edify). Or simply as Jesus put it, Love God & Love man (mark 12:20). In my estimation, and certainly not contradictory with yours above, whatever doesn't fit there is evil.

[Ugly-Caco]

Guys...if anybody has a problem with playing with scape, then bad news, there is no christian rock version for this.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by DrRansom

If you don't mind me asking, I was interested in how you would deal with satanic imagry/customs that your kids might pick up. I mean at some point your kid is likely to wind up with a T-shirt or a book or something that you will find "satanic". Where is that line for you and how will you deal with it when the line is crossed?

What I find useful is to think about the difference between imagery/references and actual identification. I can visit Mexico, read Mexican authors, drink Tequila, speak Spanish, whatever, and that doesn't make me less of an American or somehow give me dual loyalties. But I would never slap a Mexican flag bumper sticker on my car or fly their flag in front of my house where an American flag is flying right now. That would be taking on an allegiance, a self-identification, that I don't have and don't want.

It's the the same with Satan. T-shirts and toys are not the problem. Satan is the problem. He's my enemy; he's a threat to me and the people I love. I don't want to allow him any control over me or make any show of friendship toward him. That doesn't mean it's useful to purge all mention of him.

[Firemaster]

The funny thing about all this calling Taelord and the Minions demonic is that in reality, they are not. Satan (or Lucifer) and his minions are fallen angels who were cast down from heaven. They did not lose their angelic form (though I am sure they could take on some scary forms if they want), they can very easily appear in their "good" form. In fact, Lucifer was described as "the bright morning star", the most beautiful angel in all of heaven.

The whole thing with the devil being depicted as a red skinned, horned creature was because paganism was a very attractive religion to the common folk in the middle ages (what with the church requiring you fulfill about a thousand rules and paganism having just about none), that the church leaders gave the devil the image of paganism's horned god so that the common folk would connect the horned god (and paganism) with being evil, thus making paganism less attractive and making people more likely to choose christianity and thus filling the church's pews (and coffers). Of course that did not always work, so they decided that they could give the pope and the church leaders the power to keep people out of heaven if you did not follow their rules and give them all their tithes and "donations", but that's something for a different thread.

Anyways, the point is the whole thing with the red skin and the horns is a bunch of bunk. At least in terms of appearance, you'd be more likely to find the devil amongst Jandar's Sentinels than Utgar's Minions. I'm sure the devil actually encourages the use of the "evil" image, since it makes it easier for him to deceive people since they would never suspect that angel is trying to harm them since they think the enemy is "evil" looking.

[AliasQTip]

Originally Posted by Firemaster

At least in terms of appearance, you'd be more likely to find the devil amongst Jandar's Sentinels than Utgar's Minions. I'm sure the devil actually encourages the use of the "evil" image, since it makes it easier for him to deceive people since they would never suspect that angel is trying to harm them since they think the enemy is "evil" looking.

How true.

Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. (2 Corinthians 11:14)

[CheddarLimbo]

Originally Posted by Kroc

*Necromancy* (gosh I'd rep anyone who sent me the necromancy smily.)

So yesterday my two year old son was pawing through my figures and he came across the Marro hive!

He immediately picks it up and runs up to mommy saying "ooooooo." (Translation for those who don't speak two-year-old: "Mommy isn't this just the coolest thing you've ever seen???")

I have now realized the solution for anyone who's afraid the HS figures will give your kids nightmares:
Let them start playing with them early, before they realize they should be afraid of them!

It worked with hot sauce, so it'll work with HS! Actually, come to think of it, he now is very sensitive to hot food (mini monster's taste buds are slow to develop apparently) so maybe it will fail with HS as well.

But just think of it, his favorite toys from way back when he can't remember, his cute little fuzzy chimpanzee and his Marro hive. Goo goo, gah gah...

That's a cute story. I'm a firm believer in the idea that an object holds the power you bestow upon it. I gave my kid a stuffed Cthulu doll for Christmas one year. He cuddles it, sleeps with it, etc. It's not a monster to him, it's a friend. And it isn't representative of some great evil, even if the Cthulu Lovecraft wrote about was evil.

I feel the same way with Heroscape. They're just toys, and should be treated as such. If you apply a level of intent beyond that, then I think you'd have a really hard time navigating this world.