Stinger Denial

[Tornado]

Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT

So when I say it 10 pages back I get no love?

**** on you lot.

I have intentionally avoided addressing you directly as I believe you did this all for the pure love of the chaos. Well done.

Also I did not relish the thought of being on the receiving end of one of your soule raking posts.

My apologies.

[The_X_Marker]

I would add an addendum:

As long as 2 or more of us gather anywhere to play it, we may play HeroScape as we wish, as long as we all agree to play in that manner, and nobody is left out.

And, in closing, exactly zero instance of Stinger Denial in tournaments, or other more serious games, have shown up. For that reason, no rule should be made against the tactic, and you do not have to do it if you do not want to.

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by The_X_Marker

And, in closing, exactly zero instance of Stinger Denial in tournaments, or other more serious games, have shown up. For that reason, no rule should be made against the tactic, and you do not have to do it if you do not want to.

Wait? What? I thought we at least agreed on what the sides were, but now I'm thinking notsomuch. I see the sides loosely as:

a) It's in the rules and people should suck it up and deal with it.

b) The idea that people would choose to do this is annoying to me and I don't want to be involved in a game where it becomes an issue.

Your addendum does nothing to address the "b" viewpoint.

~Aldin, who thinks there are actually plenty of folks in the thread that are "a" AND "b"

[The_X_Marker]

Originally Posted by Aldin

a) It's in the rules and people should suck it up and deal with it.

b) The idea that people would choose to do this is annoying to me and I don't want to be involved in a game where it becomes an issue.

I see the sides as:

a) It's in the rules, and it has never been an issue, so we should stop making it one.

b) The idea that people would choose to do this is annoying to me and I don't want to be involved in a game where it becomes an issue, even though we can't even tell when it was an issue because it hasn't been outside this board. Also, some of us will think less of you for doing this, and we may break your figures, steal your figures, spill our drinks on you, or never invite you to our games ever again.

[Rich10]

Originally Posted by Aldin

~Aldin, who thinks there are actually plenty of folks in the thread that are "a" AND "b"

For myself, I would clarify it as:

• Yes, it is in the rules and is legal.
• No, I would not play it that way as it seems (to me) to be against the spirit of the way Stingers were intended to be played.
• If my opponent plays with Stinger Denial, I'll still have fun and shake his hand after the game.

I don't think it would comes up that often (even if people used it). I think that it would mostly hurt slower melee which needs all of the help it can get against range.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Rich10

For myself, I would clarify it as:

• Yes, it is in the rules and is legal.
• No, I would not play it that way as it seems (to me) to be against the spirit of the way Stingers were intended to be played.
• If my opponent plays with Stinger Denial, I'll still have fun and shake his hand after the game.

I don't think it would comes up that often (even if people used it). I think that it would mostly hurt slower melee which needs all of the help it can get against range.

This.

Don't judge, people.

[saywhat]

Originally Posted by The_X_Marker

b) The idea that people would choose to do this is annoying to me and I don't want to be involved in a game where it becomes an issue, even though we can't even tell when it was an issue because it hasn't been outside this board. Also, some of us will think less of you for doing this, and we may break your figures, steal your figures, spill our drinks on you, or never invite you to our games ever again.

Some of these statements were made years ago and some were even taken back/apologized for. It seems really unfair to me that you are trying to lump up the whole anti-denial camp with these few comments. Many of the anti-denial camp have been civil and fair on their assessment/opinions.

[The_X_Marker]

Originally Posted by saywhat

Some of these statements were made years ago and some were even taken back/apologized for. It seems really unfair to me that you are trying to lump up the whole anti-denial camp with these few comments. Many of the anti-denial camp have been civil and fair on their assessment/opinions.

I bolded and made red the part that you missed. I am not lumping them all together, I was making sure not to, because most of the anti-rules/denial camp has been civil in their opinions.

Even in the last 15 pages, which are relatively new, had people saying similar things, and you can't be certain that the people who took theirs back were being sincere about it. If they said it, it is an option, and someone, even someone who did not partake in this thread, could act more seriously on the matter.

But just some people. Not everybody, as you misread.

Originally Posted by Rich10

• Yes, it is in the rules and is legal.
• No, I would not play it.
• If my opponent plays with Stinger Denial, I'll still have fun and shake his hand after the game.

I don't think it would comes up that often (even if people used it).

I could end on this note, as well.

[saywhat]

Originally Posted by The_X_Marker

But just some people. Not everybody, as you misread.

My apologies.

Originally Posted by The_X_Marker

I could end on this note, as well.

And I agree.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

This and other related issues are commented upon in depth by several notables here. I've never met spider poison, but this post displays great character, and an admirable respect for his fellow players.

I've played in just about as many tournaments as anyone, and I've had most of these situations come up in tourney games. Some of them are pretty cut and dry (in my mind), and others are a bit hazy. Here are my thoughts:

1. Stinger Denial- I personally don't do it, but I have nothing against those who do. There are different interpretations of the game, and I'm fine with that...and I also won't judge a person's character over it. Really though, it doesn't come up often at all, and so I don't lose sleep over it.



2. Stalling- I think this is actually a bigger deal than most people think. I once had a game where I essentially Q9 versus Krug, and the time was low. I also had rats, while my opponent had a few Blade Gruts. As most of you know, it's not a good idea to have an engaged Q9 attack a healthy Krug. So instead, I had rats make pitiful attacks against the Blades. I could have given my opponent less opportunities to kill Q9, but I instead hurried through all my turns and gave him a kagillion opportunities to kill Q9. Sure enough, on the last swing, Q9 fell. I probably could have reasonably given my opponent about 50% of the attacks on Q9 that he actually got, but I didn't. It does suck when "smart" comes in conflict with unethical, but I think even minor stalling reflects poor character.

That I would not have any problem with the form of stalling spider poison describes here is undoubtedly a reflection of my poor character.

3. I think turning figures is a good tactic. However, like GB said, I play by the general rule that if one figure can shoot from one hex to a figure on another hex, the figure receiving fire should be able to return fire on their turn. If a person were to shoot and then retreat within the wiggle room of a hex to be covered by an obstacle, I would think that's cheesy.

It never occurred to me to slide a figure out of LoS after attacking at range from a battlement, even though it makes perfect sense - that's what they're for - nor to slide a figure out of LoS after attacking at range in general, but it will now, yet another reflection of my poor character, I guess!

4. I think the rat dance is a good move, and I've used it in tournaments before. However, I did feel badly one time when my opponent was unaware that I could scatter a rat that he going to attack later. From then on, if I think my opponent is unaware of it, I'll mention it beforehand....just hopefully I don't offend someone who is well aware of the fact and I tell them anyway.

I've never met anyone who was offended about my using the "rat dance" - it's what they were designed to do - but playing them in the first place . . .

5. Well, I don't look down on anyone who fields Q9, lots of Mass, or lots of rats, but I do think it's a little annoying if that's practically all they ever bring to a tourney (unless of course your name has the word "Code" in it :P ). I say mix it up a little and play a variety of units so people don't remember you as "oh yeah, that guy who always plays Q9...that (expletive)." There are plenty of good units out there anyway that are capable of doing well and winning a tournament.

It was annoying, even in the so-called "casual" environment of the Gang of Four, to be called "that guy who always plays Kaemon." Even though I now rarely field him, when I do, I still get ed.

6. I'm pretty much the opposite of a rules lawyer, but I guess I'd have to look at each and every situation to make a good judgment. For example, if someone bonds with Marcus but forgets to make an attack with him and proceeds to move Romans, I'll either remind the player or let him go back and make an attack. Not a big deal.

Pretty much how the Gang handles it, especially as it, and similar issues with Bonding, happens so often!

7. Making the best move possible is kind of an ambiguous statement, but I think it's generally always smart and ethical. I don't think attacking your own figures under any circumstance is wrong...I'm perfectly fine with it.

The Gang goes a little farther, allowing players extreme latitude to correct their mistakes, if discovered after moving but before attacking - see above.

If there were one other gray area, I would say it deals with determining the outcome of dice rolls. Sometimes dice are tilted on random items, and some subjectiveness comes into play. Whatever the die is closest to is what I go by, but if my opponent interprets it differently, I'll adapt to their judgment for the rest of the game. I have had people who try to take advantage of me in this regard, though, and I'll be sure to call them on it if I feel like they're trying to gain an unfair advantage. I guess that's just one more reason to use a genuine, hand-crafted work of art made by the natives of Texas http://vixentorgames.com/

We re-roll anything "tilted on random items," but any agreed upon convention is OK with me.

As a general blanket statement, I do believe there is a "spirit of the game" in Heroscape, and I see that as a game that isn't meant to get all worked up over. I think some games were just designed to take more seriously than others. However, I do think it's possible to be very competitive and still not be a rules lawyer or unpleasant to play against. Rÿchean and lonewolf are two others who come to mind in this regard, but I think this holds true for most competitive people who play Heroscape tournaments.

Anyway, I don't think any legal move is unethical, but that doesn't mean I would use them myself. I also don't think anyone who uses Stinger Denial should have their character judged, but I do think stalling shows poor character. Taking a strict interpretation of the rules isn't unethical, but being a jerk about it is. I know that different people hold different opinions about what Heroscape should be, and I won't hold it against them if it's differs from how I see the game.

[ekoxe1]

I would consider myself staunchly in the camp of have fun, forget rules lawyering and cheese, but on the other hand (maybe due to being a noob), I Think stuff like stinger denial is cool, I'd have no problem with it, its a cool idea (I'd be interested to know if it was an official idea, and was costed into the unit, probably not), same goes for moving the mini on the hex like to attack from range and duck back behind a wall, though that seems to be also be against the spirit of the rules. I Think it would be fun to explore these kinds of ideas, I wouldn't be interested in playing with "serious" competitors IN ANY ENVIRONMENT so specific cases like this arent so big of a problem.

[Dad_Scaper]

I have been playing this game with friends and family since 2008 and competitively since 2009. I've been running tournaments, including some of the bigger local and national events anywhere, since 2010.

I have never, ever, seen this "Stinger Denial" bogeyman. Players of this game are not the type of people who do that to each other on purpose.