Unit Debate #61 -- Hatamoto Taro vs Deathwalker 7000

[MegaSilver]

I ask that you don't use this format without permission to preserve the quality of the Unit Debates and avoid confusion.



This Unit Debate was selected by scorpiusx.

1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefulness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

6. Best Strategic Use

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl

[nate the dawg]

Alright! Which one is the less-stinky stinker!

1. Stats/Special Powers - In terms of stats, I (barely) think that DW7K is better. It hits a touch harder that HT and certainly has better movement and defense. Sure, it's susceptible to the 'Rule of the Deathwalkers', but with just two defense (plus the possible auto-shield) I think the DW7K has better survivability.

In terms of powers, HT's aura is far too limited, and his variation on Tough is hardly overpowered. DW7K's Self Destruct is pretty unreliable, but Stealth Dodge + 7 defense is awesome.

I'm going with Deathwalker 7000.

2. Playability - Not being necessarily tied to any theme, I'm thinking of Deathwalker 7000 as more playable. Also, it's 30 points cheaper, so it's easier to fit into armies.

3. Overall Usefulness - Overall, I find neither to be very useful; both units powers that are very situational. The DW7K's ability to safely(?) run up to its target before going KABOOM! can be handy, but it often doesn't kill figures equal to its own value.

Hatamoto's aura has a great radius, but it only benefits your figures if the attacker meets a number of very specific criteria.

One is a 'hole-punch', the other a pure, albeit specific, cheerleader. I'm gonna have to call usefulness a tie.

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head - Two attack versus seven defense or three attack versus two defense. Even if the DW7K doesn't blow itself up, I can's see HT living through this. So, yeah, Deathwalker 7000 would own in head-to-head.

5. Army Builds - Well, we all know just how fearsome and intimidating Samurai-themed army builds can be! Really though, HT plus three or four squads of Tagawa Samurai Archers leaves room for a screen or Raelin, so at least HT can fit into an army in which he's capable of effectively serving a clear purpose. DW7K is a bit more difficult to have in mind while making an army; being a unit that doesn't specifically synergize with anything (except maybe Torin), it's hard to imagine spending 100 points on it with the variety of better choices out there.

I go with Hatamoto Taro.

6. Best Strategic Use - I haven't used either particularly well in terms of strategy, though I suppose that HT is a bit more straight-forward in this respect, being capable of, let's say, holding a glyph while still protecting your other Samurai. DW7K is much more difficult to use, given that he's more effective when taking out an opponent's hero, and that requires your opponent exposing their hero on a turn in which you've already got an OM on DW7K.

Hatamoto Taro takes this one.

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl - DW7K all the way! I haven't tried it, but a bomb that has a 50% shot at being reusable for the next round sounds great. The only thing going for HT in this one is the auto shield if you're keeping him adjacent to another Einar figure.

So, I'm going with Deathwalker 7000 overall (though, if this used Hatamoto's beta version, this debate would be much closer, IMO).

[lefton4ya]

If I was commiting suicide, I would rather die in a self-destructing explosion that takes down others than seppuku with a sword so I pick Deathwaker 7k

[The Disciplined Soldier]

After considering four things, abilities, stats, synergy and In-Game-Point-Values I'd go with Deathwalker 7000 on this one even though I like the Samurai, hes' got a better defense, (7-2) better attack (3-1) and is faster (6-5).In powers and stats Deathwalker can act alone becuase of his powers and great defense (watch out for the Deatwalker roll) while for Hatamoto Taro there's more synergy, as Taro's powers require Ashigaru and Samurai and he needs backup with defense of two and attack of one. If you go by UPC's In-Game-Point-Values it's probably easier for Deathwalker to maintain his I.G.P.Vs then Hatmoto Taro, as Deathwalker has no synergy units to bring down his I.G.P.Vs.

[Gog the Viking]

I find that Deathwalker 7000 can do quite well if you don't expect much more from him than crippling a few unique squads. A decent samurai army is already expensive enough point wise that another, not very good, hero added to the mix is far too much to consider. Deathwalker rarely measures up to 100 points in straight kill value, but killing 1 or 2 krav along with 1 or 2 airbornes is well worth the cost.

[Perdido]

I like DW7K as a deterrent. If you have any method of moving him rapidly, your opponent has to really think about where he places his units for fear of a potential bomb going off. Useful against Elves, Orcs, Romans and other units/teams that rely on adjacency.

Hatamoto really doesn't have that intimidation or meta-game factor going on. Plus he has a glass jaw, plus his main use isn't that useful against Special Attacks.

Both units are reliant on other units to fully realise their abilities. Deathwalker needs some form of public transit, Hatamoto needs Samurai. However, the nice thing is that you do have some options with Deathwalker, as you aren't tied down to a specific unit/army type and have some flexibility in building an army.

I've always wanted to try a Saylind/Deathwalker 7000 combo.

Have Saylind on OM3, hopefully summon in DW7k, hopefully win initiative and blow up amongst a massed group. If not, well, hopefully having DW7K plop down would be enough to force your opponent to go on the defensive.

Maybe,

DW7K
Saylind
Eltahale
Krug
Black Wyrmling x 2

Not particularly synergistic, although you can have Krug wade in and potentially risk eating a bomb (ballsy, though, as a 20 would turn him into paint!) Eltahale and Saylind could be a decent pingpong combination: Use OM1&2 on Eltahale, then use OM3 on Saylind to bring her back.

Then, rinse and repeat, or use Eltahale to draw your opponent closer. Then plop down Krug. Or DW7K. Or use the Black Wyrmlings for harassment.

The other nice thing about DW7K? Both Brunak and Theracus can carry him, as he's Medium sized. Opens up some more options and gives a more surefire method of delivery. Ornak:Brunak/DW7K could be a devastating combination, although those three figures right there are over 300 points and don't leave a whole lot of options.

In summary, I like DW7K as a way to mess with your opponent's head. Even if you're only using the X marker on him, he can be used to keep your opponent focused on one thing (avoiding DW7K/keeping his units spread apart) while you set him up for something else.

Hatamoto, despite looking cooler, doesn't have that same advantage.

[The Disciplined Soldier]

Originally Posted by Perdido

Hatamoto really doesn't have that intimidation or meta-game factor going on. Plus he has a glass jaw, plus his main use isn't that useful against Special Attacks.

Deathwalker 7000 also has the sorta of glass jaw with the Deathwalker roll.

[Kaemon Awa 123]

I'm going against the masses and voting for Taro. With careful playing, he can be a valuable asset. Deathwalker on the other hand, is mostly out of your control, both with crazy luck dependance and how your opponents react.

[BurnyFlame]

The debate would be more even if we used the 100 point version of Hatomoto Taro. It is a much better card.

[shafizele]

Dwk 7000 is way funner (yes i know that is not a word :P) to play so he wins this one because really in a proper "i want to win" game i would play neither

[dok]

Originally Posted by BurnyFlame

The debate would be more even if we used the 100 point version of Hatomoto Taro. It is a much better card.

The 100 point version seems much better than DW7k. I think this version of the debate is much closer.

DW7k is probably a better figure overall, in a double-blind environment. However, I think you can actually argue that Hatamoto is worth his points against an all-melee, all-normal-attacking opponent if the rest of your army is Raelin and a ton of Samurai. In that situation, Hatamoto becomes sort of a second Raelin. Raelin+HT+TSAx4 could do pretty well against, say, Minions or Marro Dividers.

It's tough to find a spot where DW7k is comparably valuable, except perhaps as a counter to his fellow Deathwalkers.

[The Disciplined Soldier]

Originally Posted by dok

The 100 point version seems much better than DW7k. I think this version of the debate is much closer.

DW7k is probably a better figure overall, in a double-blind environment. However, I think you can actually argue that Hatamoto is worth his points against an all-melee, all-normal-attacking opponent if the rest of your army is Raelin and a ton of Samurai. In that situation, Hatamoto becomes sort of a second Raelin. Raelin+HT+TSAx4 could do pretty well against, say, Minions or Marro Dividers.

It's tough to find a spot where DW7k is comparably valuable, except perhaps as a counter to his fellow Deathwalkers.

I must note that while the 100 point version of Taro may be better it is not technically an official unit as it has been modified. Now it is technically official because its been approved by the Competitive Units Congress, I do prefer to use the Hasbro versions that van Ness came up with. As this is in the Official Units Thread i must object to the use of a modified Taro.
Taro I also do not see as a second Realin, maybe Thorgrim, but not Taro, as he is too specific in who he boosts. As far as I know no Samurai units have the disciplined army defense bonus power that limits army building so using Thorgrim would not be too hard. Although Taro would be infinently better for the role.