Captain America (Steve Rogers) (New Avengers)

[Tornado]

[Yodaking]

need to convert Conan now

[japes]

UPdated

[Arkham]

Not loving seeing things changed without being privy to them as the LD, especially with no real notes here to observe how we got here. I feel I've been very responsive when people have reached out, which I've appreciated.

That said, I think you want just "1 wound", right? Not "+1 wound". You also have "with 5 clear spaces" instead of "within 5 clear spaces".

If Captain America would be defeated by receiving wounds from an enemy, roll 2 combat dice. If he has:
• 1+ shields, he instead ignores those wounds.
• 1+ skulls, if the defender is with 5 clear spaces, it takes +1 wound.

[Lord Pyre]

Originally Posted by Arkham

Not loving seeing things changed without being privy to them as the LD, especially with no real notes here to observe how we got here. I feel I've been very responsive when people have reached out, which I've appreciated.

That said, I think you want just "1 wound", right? Not "+1 wound". You also have "with 5 clear spaces" instead of "within 5 clear spaces".

Looks like it was here, but there's no discussion about it here either. Must have just copy pasted that quick wording from the proposal without vetting the wording.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Arkham

Not loving seeing things changed without being privy to them as the LD, especially with no real notes here to observe how we got here. I feel I've been very responsive when people have reached out, which I've appreciated.

That said, I think you want just "1 wound", right? Not "+1 wound". You also have "with 5 clear spaces" instead of "within 5 clear spaces".

Good eyes. Definitely some typos there.

I thought you had been privy to the Ronin/japes match up in the Con tourney and the conversation that came out of that, but I agree you should've been messaged directly. Probably an out of sight, out of mind type of thing. Definitely something we need to be more conscious of going forward, though. Apologies.

Since you're here, are you OK with the changes? The idea was that it could just start feeling oppressive to play against in the prior form, so this broke up the wound effect and the survival effect a bit more in an attempt to even things out and reduce that feeling. But @japes can comment on all of that more directly.

[Arkham]

My immediate thought is, respectfully, I hope we aren't getting too knee-jerk "this was my limited experience with this design, and I had luck with it, thus it must need fixing" territory with some of this stuff.

From experience(about 30+ games), you see it hit 0-1 time per game most often. Seeing it successful multiple times in the same game is not the statistical average/likelihood, I'd wager. I think the odds were similar to a coin flip?

That said, I see this as better than the previous version, strength wise. It's easier to roll a skull than a shield out of 2 dice, so this should see him dishing out a wound more often than before, statistically, while his survivability odds remain the same. For example, 2 skulls or 1 shield and 1 skull, are more likely than 2 shields or 1 shield and 1 blank.

So do I have an issue with it from that perspective? No. It's possibly an upgrade, if anything. Just not convinced it was necessary.

[japes]

Respectfully...that's not what math says. 2 faces = a Shield and you roll 2 dice. You only need 1 shield total.

that's 20 combos out of 36 to get a single shield. That's way more than 0-1 times triggering on average. So if a Melee figure attacks cap...there is a better chance that it takes a wound than defeats cap.

with the changes sure he may have more chances to give a wound but he'd also still die there as well so it's feels worth the wound in that case. also has a chance to survive without giving the wound. Getting to both survive and give a wound is harder so the feeling of accomplishing something is there if you take a wound and still defeat him.

So it wasn't a knee jerk reaction. lots of discussion was had at con with lots of people

But Yes...I agree that Ronin's luck there was way better than average.

[IAmBatman]

I think the idea was that by splitting the effects it both raises the floor and lowers the ceiling a bit. He’s less likely to get zero value from the ability and less likely to go on a hot streak that creates extreme unfun for the opponent.

I agree it’s not a drop in power level (and power level was never really a concern). It’s a smoothing of the play experience to avoid some of the more punishing outliers (which has been a common approach for us in 2.0).

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by japes

Respectfully...that's not what math says. 2 faces = a Shield and you roll 2 dice. You only need 1 shield total.

that's 20 combos out of 36 to get a single shield. That's way more than 0-1 times triggering on average. So if a Melee figure attacks cap...there is a better chance that it takes a wound than defeats cap.

with the changes sure he may have more chances to give a wound but he'd also still die there as well so it's feels worth the wound in that case. also has a chance to survive without giving the wound. Getting to both survive and give a wound is harder so the feeling of accomplishing something is there if you take a wound and still defeat him.

So it wasn't a knee jerk reaction. lots of discussion was had at con with lots of people

But Yes...I agree that Ronin's luck there was way better than average.

That's great that lots of discussion was had at con with lots of people, but I was at con(and am always on Discord), why wasn't sufficient discussion had with the LD and person who's actually used him many times? Random people weighing in on something based on a luck driven 2 games, compared to asking someone with first hand experience playing him dozens of times, is not knee-jerk?

To clarify the odds. It was about 55% odds it would hit. Before, he needed only 1 shield to both survive and inflict a wound. Now, he still only needs 1 shield to survive, but alternatively, if he has a skull, he inflicts the wound.

We're going from (listed from most likely odds to least):
2 Skulls = Nothing
Shield & Skull = Block & Wound
2 Shields = Block & Wound
Skull + Blank = Nothing
Blank + Shield = Block & Wound
2 Blanks = Nothing

to

2 Skulls = Wound
Shield & Skull = Block & Wound
2 Shields = Block
Skull + Blank = Wound
Blank + Shield = Block
2 Blanks = Nothing

Odds of survival remain the same, but now more often you're going to be wounded than you were prior, is my point.

That said, I already stated I'm not opposed to this upgrade, I just don't think it was necessary, and am insulted you're doubling down on not thinking my opinion was warranted.

[japes]

If you are insulted by something I said then I don't know what to say. I have a crap memory but I remember you were there...I even remember you made the comment that you had never had that kind of luck with it. And I acknowledged that yes, Ronin's luck was very extreme.

I have messaged you on every other design except this one (BC I felt it was already discussed) yet you feel like I'm personally insulting you.

But this below is the point as Bat's states with better words....not some grand scheme against you or your designs...

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I think the idea was that by splitting the effects it both raises the floor and lowers the ceiling a bit. He’s less likely to get zero value from the ability and less likely to go on a hot streak that creates extreme unfun for the opponent.

I agree it’s not a drop in power level (and power level was never really a concern). It’s a smoothing of the play experience to avoid some of the more punishing outliers (which has been a common approach for us in 2.0).

Also those two games you reference were not the only times he's been played by someone other than you.

[Yodaking]

I agree with Ark's analysis on the change. The block effect didn't change at all, it needed 1+ shields on 2 dice before and it still needs 1+ shields on 2 dice now. The wound mechanic just changed from also needing 1+ shields on 2 dice, to 1+ skulls on 2 dice. With 3 skulls per dice vs. 2 shields per die, this is an upgrade.

I witnessed the end of Ronin's game and it was pretty epic how many times he was attacked and rolled a shield to ignore it. Don't recall much else.