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C3G Legacy Library This is the archive for all the designs released in the original era of C3G. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.


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  #109  
Old December 8th, 2014, 07:55 PM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

@Midgieboy3 Still not sure why you picked Commander Rogers to post your question. The Cave, or any of the Wrecking Crew's thread would have been more appropriate.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #110  
Old December 8th, 2014, 10:31 PM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

Because that's where the playtest goes and it was a question about the playtest. Your right I should of put it in Wrecker or someone's. Sorry


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  #111  
Old December 8th, 2014, 11:54 PM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

OK so you were doing a playtest for the commander Rogers re-eval. Got it. That answers my first question but yeah rule of thumb would be to post questions about a particular power in a book with that power. That makes it easier for the next person to find the answer if they have the same question. When in doubt the Cave can be your next option.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #112  
Old January 2nd, 2015, 12:44 AM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT: Commander Rogers

- THEME TEST
Pass

- MIRROR TEST
Pass


- BONDING TEST
Pass


- SYNERGIES TEST
Pass


- POWER CHECK
Pass


- FUN TEST
Pass


- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST
Pass

- DRAFTING TEST
Pass

- USAGE TEST
Pass


- STRATEGY TEST
Pass

_________________________________________________________

Army Test 1

Does it pass, Yes or No?
-Yes
What should be the unit's point value?
-250
Damage:
-1 wound on Invisible Woman.
-1 wound on Thing.
-5 wounds on Human Torch.

Power Effectiveness:
-N/A.
Give a brief overview:
-Each team took the same road to each other, meeting by the ruin on the outside of the map. Hulk and Mr. Fantastic took the highground, while the others swarmed around, Quasar and Commander Rogers on the other side of the ruin. The Hulk took quite the beating, but ultimately he provided his team with the heavy hits to oust Mr. Fantastic and Thing, while Quasar did in Invisible Woman. Human Torch took out Quasar, leaving a final stand off between Commander Rogers and Human Torch. They traded blows, but ultimately Commander Rogers got the best of the exchange, with a barely alive Hulk watching on.
Map: Chernobyl(No Superstrength, Glyphs, or Destructible Objects)
Units:
Commander Rogers, Hulk, Quasar(1000)
vs.
Fantastic Four(1000)

Spoiler Alert!



Army Test 2

Does it pass, Yes or No?
-Yes
What should be the unit's point value?
-250-260
Damage:
-4 wounds on Flash.
-6 wounds on Wonder Woman.
-3 wounds on Superman.

Power Effectiveness:
-N/A.
Give a brief overview:
-Flash immediately ran across the map and squared off with Commander Rogers. Superman and Thor duked it out. Eventually Wonder Woman pulled Thor away, and finished him off. Commander Rogers took out Flash, then surprisingly got the jump on Wonder Woman before she could lasso him, and eliminated her with ease. Superman eliminated Thing. Commander Rogers managed to do some damage on Superman through offense and defense, and it came down to the last attack, 1 wound being the deciding factor, unfortunately Commander Rogers couldn't block it.
Map: Chernobyl(No Superstrength, Glyphs, or Destructible Objects)
Units:
Commander Rogers, Thor, Thing(1005)
vs.
Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash(Barry Allen)(1000)

Spoiler Alert!
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  #113  
Old January 2nd, 2015, 02:19 PM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

Thanks, Sock! At this point, I'm thinking that his cost might edge up, but he's looking much more balanced (though the amount of damage he dealt in the second game is a little worrying).

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  #114  
Old January 2nd, 2015, 04:37 PM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

What were the rolls like in that second game, AS? Anyone can have a freak game, but you haven't made it clear what the luck was like for it to be evaluated as well as possible - if Wonder Woman and Flash were just having a bad day and Rogers was having a good one, or it was just that Rogers was having a really, really good one, then it probably isn't a massive worry.


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  #115  
Old January 2nd, 2015, 04:53 PM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
What were the rolls like in that second game, AS? Anyone can have a freak game, but you haven't made it clear what the luck was like for it to be evaluated as well as possible - if Wonder Woman and Flash were just having a bad day and Rogers was having a good one, or it was just that Rogers was having a really, really good one, then it probably isn't a massive worry.
Well, that's what the turn by turn breakdown is for.

Army 1: CR moves, attacks WW, 2 wounds.
Army 2: WW attacks CR, blocked, WW takes 1 wound.
Army 1: CR moves, attacks WW, 4 wounds, she's dead.

So from this, it's pretty straight on that if he has an attack of 4, +1 auto since he was only attacking her adjacently, he must have either:
3 skulls +1 auto, against 0 shields
or
4 skulls +1 auto, against 1 shield

I'm pretty sure height wasn't involved.

So yes, he did decently on his roll, but more than anything, Wonder Woman just rolled poorly. He managed to get 2 wounds on Superman through attacking, and 1 by defending.
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  #116  
Old January 3rd, 2015, 10:47 AM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
What were the rolls like in that second game, AS? Anyone can have a freak game, but you haven't made it clear what the luck was like for it to be evaluated as well as possible - if Wonder Woman and Flash were just having a bad day and Rogers was having a good one, or it was just that Rogers was having a really, really good one, then it probably isn't a massive worry.
Well, that's what the turn by turn breakdown is for.

Army 1: CR moves, attacks WW, 2 wounds.
Army 2: WW attacks CR, blocked, WW takes 1 wound.
Army 1: CR moves, attacks WW, 4 wounds, she's dead.

So from this, it's pretty straight on that if he has an attack of 4, +1 auto since he was only attacking her adjacently, he must have either:
3 skulls +1 auto, against 0 shields
or
4 skulls +1 auto, against 1 shield

I'm pretty sure height wasn't involved.

So yes, he did decently on his roll, but more than anything, Wonder Woman just rolled poorly. He managed to get 2 wounds on Superman through attacking, and 1 by defending.
That's important information to make note of in the tests though. Yes, we can go through the turn-by-turn and do the math ourselves, but there are so many variables in Heroscape (and some, like height advantage, that we can't see in the tests) that it is a lot to calculate for someone who didn't play the game. We don't need every die results listed (that actually makes it harder to read), but making mention of any significant rolls is very useful. For example, I note whenever a unit whiffs its defense roll or when a unit rolls all skulls.

You've been really churning out the playtests this week, and that's really helpful, but quality is just as important, if not more important, than quantity. The more information you can give us in your tests, the better those tests will be.

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  #117  
Old January 3rd, 2015, 12:23 PM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollBrute View Post
That's important information to make note of in the tests though. Yes, we can go through the turn-by-turn and do the math ourselves, but there are so many variables in Heroscape (and some, like height advantage, that we can't see in the tests) that it is a lot to calculate for someone who didn't play the game. We don't need every die results listed (that actually makes it harder to read), but making mention of any significant rolls is very useful. For example, I note whenever a unit whiffs its defense roll or when a unit rolls all skulls.

You've been really churning out the playtests this week, and that's really helpful, but quality is just as important, if not more important, than quantity. The more information you can give us in your tests, the better those tests will be.
See, here's my issue with what you are saying. You are giving me suggestions on things I already do.
Spoiler Alert!

So excuse me if I take this a little bit disrespectfully, and belittling, as if you're telling me "nice try, but this isn't good enough", and then you proceed to list 1 or 2 things I should do, 1 of which I already consistently do in every play test I turn in. It just gives me the impression you aren't even reading what I take the time to write-up.

Now with that said, sure, I can certainly make an extra effort to put more emphasis on specific things, and explain more as to why something went a certain way. Although I feel I already do, if you don't think it's enough, I'll add in another sentence or two for clarity just in case, highlight certain deciding factors, because I do want these to be seen as quality play tests and not just wasted hours on my part. Nobody wins there.
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  #118  
Old January 3rd, 2015, 01:00 PM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollBrute View Post
That's important information to make note of in the tests though. Yes, we can go through the turn-by-turn and do the math ourselves, but there are so many variables in Heroscape (and some, like height advantage, that we can't see in the tests) that it is a lot to calculate for someone who didn't play the game. We don't need every die results listed (that actually makes it harder to read), but making mention of any significant rolls is very useful. For example, I note whenever a unit whiffs its defense roll or when a unit rolls all skulls.

You've been really churning out the playtests this week, and that's really helpful, but quality is just as important, if not more important, than quantity. The more information you can give us in your tests, the better those tests will be.
See, here's my issue with what you are saying. You are giving me suggestions on things I already do.
Spoiler Alert!

So excuse me if I take this a little bit disrespectfully, and belittling, as if you're telling me "nice try, but this isn't good enough", and then you proceed to list 1 or 2 things I should do, 1 of which I already consistently do in every play test I turn in. It just gives me the impression you aren't even reading what I take the time to write-up.

Now with that said, sure, I can certainly make an extra effort to put more emphasis on specific things, and explain more as to why something went a certain way. Although I feel I already do, if you don't think it's enough, I'll add in another sentence or two for clarity just in case, highlight certain deciding factors, because I do want these to be seen as quality play tests and not just wasted hours on my part. Nobody wins there.
To be honest, turn-by-turn reports include a lot of information that isn't relevant to the tested unit.* I (and some of the other Heroes) often skim over the parts of the report that don't include the tested unit. So yes, I did miss the some of the parts you point out. Obviusly, these kinds of rolls won't come up in every game with every unit, I just felt that I hadn't seen much on this front, relating to the tested, from your recent tests.

*This isn't meant to criticize turn-by-turn reports, many players use this style, even myself at times.

I'm sorry you find my comments belittling or disrespectful. That was never my intention. I was honestly trying to help you improve your reports. As you said, unhelpful reports are a waste of time for all of us. I was only offering my advice based on my knowledge of what is useful from the perspective of evaluating reports. However, if you don't appreciate my attempts at constructive criticism, I'll just shut up.

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  #119  
Old January 3rd, 2015, 01:55 PM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

Another thing people should realize is not every comment is a criticism. Sometimes, like I believe was the intent here, is to use something as a teaching example for other potential testers to learn from as well as helping a good tester become an elite tester.

TB is often one of the most helpful and respectful people here so you shouldn't be taking his comments as disrespectful or belittling. L_O is another story, he sometimes comes off gruffer than he intends but he means well.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #120  
Old January 9th, 2015, 10:10 PM
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Re: The Book of Commander Rogers

Here's some games with the new Rogers. He definitely feels a lot more balanced now then before. He's still a scary figure to face on the battlefield (especially for low-cost units), but he no longer sucks all the hope out of his opponent. The changes to Photonic Energy Shield especially came out in my games; there was at least one case in all three games where the old version of Photonic Energy Shield would have dealt a wound but where the new version didn't (in the last game, this was huge, as it was the last of the LexCorp Security attacking, and they'd have lost their hero activation had the LexCorp died). There are still some strong combos to be made with Master Tactician (him, Joker (I), and Ozy can really mess with a lot of armies), but he's no longer better in that role then units such as Cyclops, Cable, Black Adam, and Captain Marvel (Batson) who can all pull off the same combo.

I could see bringing his cost up some just to play it safe, but overall he's no longer broken in my opinion.

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Commander Rogers

- THEME TEST
Pass

- MIRROR TEST
Pass

- BONDING TEST
Pass

- SYNERGIES TEST
Pass

- POWER CHECK
Pass

- FUN TEST
Pass

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST
Pass

- DRAFTING TEST
Pass

- USAGE TEST
Pass

- STRATEGY TEST
Pass

_____________________________________________________________

Army Test 1
- Does it pass, Yes or No?
Pass
- What should be the unit's point value? 230-260
- Give a brief overview. Rogers was very useful in the beginning, but some below-average defense rolls meant he went down before the end of the second round. Luck swung in Joker’s and Ozy’s direction after Rogers was gone, which brought the game close, but their team still lost in the end.

UNIT SUM-UP
Damage:
Normal Attack: 2 wounds Karate Kid.
Photonic Energy Shield: N/A
Power Usage/Effectiveness:
Master Tactician: Moved 4 total OMs, extremely useful.
Trained to Perfection: Never got to attack in melee.
Photonic Energy Shield: Added 3 auto-shields, inflicted 0 wounds (old version would have inflicted wounds 2 times).

Map: Conflict Chernobyl (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Commander Rogers, Joker (I), Ozymandias, Star Sapphire (Ferris), Beast Boy (Cheetah) (1,000 points) VS Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, Superboy (Kal-El), Karate Kid (1,000 points)
Spoiler Alert!


_____________________________________________________________

Army Test 2
- Does it pass, Yes or No?
Pass
- What should be the unit's point value? 250-270
- Give a brief overview. Even put in a pretty favorable match-up and with luck seemingly skewed slightly more in his team’s direction, Rogers only narrowly pulled out the win. Old Rogers would have won this rounds earlier and with a lot less wounds.

UNIT SUM-UP
Damage:
Normal Attack: 5 Hand Ninja, 2 wounds to Merlyn, 1 Elite League Assassin, 1 Man-Bat Assassin.
Photonic Energy Shield: 2 Elite League Assassins, 1 Hand Ninja.
Power Usage/Effectiveness:
Master Tactician: Wasn’t used (old version would have been used once or twice)
Trained to Perfection: Used whirlwind effect 3 times, used auto-skull 8 times.
Photonic Energy Shield: Added 10 auto-shields, inflicted 3 wounds (old version would have inflicted wounds 3 more times).

Map: Conflict Chernobyl (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Commander Rogers, Nick Fury, SHIELD Agents x3 (800 points) VS Hand Ninja x4, Elite League Assassins, Man-Bat Assassins, Merlyn (800 points)
Spoiler Alert!


_____________________________________________________________

Army Test 3
- Does it pass, Yes or No?
Pass
- What should be the unit's point value? 250-280
- Give a brief overview. Rogers, backed by the right units, is still a solid army. However, this game came pretty close, whereas with the old version of Rogers they would have walked away with a much larger victory (in this game, the old version of Photonic Energy Shield would have killed the last LexCorp when it attacked him, which would have lost them the hero activation; and that activation resulted in 3 wounds to Joker).

UNIT SUM-UP
Damage:
Normal Attack: 4 LexCorp Security, 2 wounds to Lex Luthor.
Photonic Energy Shield: N/A
Power Usage/Effectiveness:
Master Tactician: Moved 6 total OMs, extremely useful.
Trained to Perfection: Used whirlwind effect 1 time, used auto-skull 6 times.
Photonic Energy Shield: Added 8 auto-shields, inflicted 0 wounds (old version would have inflicted wounds 1 time; would have drastically altered events).

Map: Conflict Chernobyl (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Commander Rogers, Zombie, Joker (I), Oracle, Harley Quinn (800 points) VS LexCorp Security x3, Lex Luthor (II), Wizard (810 points)
Spoiler Alert!

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