The Book of Rodan

[Arkham]

To clarify further, I'm not suggesting an opposing army must be hyper competitive to stand a chance. That would be bad approach. However, the army should be a good/cohesive army.

When designing big point figures like 600 points or 1000 points etc. They need to be great. Because if they're not, you won't ever draft them again after they get stomped. It's not like a 10-300 point figure, where if they underperform or "have a bad game" you're likely to give them another shot because they're only so many points so they fit into all sorts of builds and situations. A big point figure, if disappointing, likely lost its opportunity to win you over as all your eggs were in that one basket. Playing them, means its sink or swim based purely on their performance alone. I say this with the caveat that of course bad games can happen, but we're talking averages here.

What I mean by all that is not to suggest they need to be overpowered or anything like that. But they need to absolutely feel like they're worth their investment more-so than lower point figures need to, to stay relevant. Would Godzilla still be picked so often if it were not for him doing pretty darn well more often than not?

So should they primarily beat sub-optimal armies? I think so. If I just choose 3 random 200 point figures with no cohesion for example, no synergy, and may even be poor matchups against Rodan on paper, then yeah, I think Rodan should win that matchup. Good and bad matchups exist beyond point levels. That's nothing new here, nor is it exclusive to Heroscape(fighting games etc. all have matchup odds yet all fighters are intended to still be equally balanced etc.).

More competitively sound/cohesive armies with actual synergy, should be as close of a match as possible. In my games, the matches were close. So when I see games that are very one sided, and the opposing armies aren't very competitive or cohesive for whatever reason, and it's being suggested the unit must be worth 100+ points more because of said experiences, I of course have to look at all the factors at play to determine if that's valid or not.

Hyper competitive is another story though. That's like getting into crazy dok/Dysole builds at that point that are designed to squeeze every little ounce of possible upside in ways you may not even be prepared to understand or expect etc. So no, that's not what I think is necessary here at all.

If you look at my testing armies for all tests I run, I just use tried and true synergies. Fantastic Four, Fighters/Crime Fighters, Justice League, Avengers, X-men, Aliens etc. Those aren't hyper competitive, they're just solid armies. They're a good bar to strive for, IMO, thus testing around them with new units to make sure they're on as close to an equal level as them, seems like an ideal path to take. In contrast, I don't think we should be making sure Rodan is on par with and balanced around Satanus + Nemesis, for all the reasons I spoke of before, as that's a good way to make sure he feels overcosted when going up against proven solid armies.

[MrNobody]

I think when a "good" cohesively built typical army (like an Avengers build, JL build, X-Men build, etc.) goes up against a Godzilla-type one-man armies, the typical army should probably have some advantage. (I'm thinking 60/40 odds, not counting the natural counter-draftiness each army can have against the other.)

That's because army building is a part of the strategy of the game. Picking Godzilla requires basically 0 thought on the behalf of the player who picks him, but it forces the enemy to put in a lot of thought on how to beat him, and build their army around that. We've seen this in Super League a bit, where Godzilla being in the fray means a lot of players have started drafting "Godzilla contingencies." One-man armies warp the way your opponent plays the game without requiring a huge amount of thought/effort on your part, so I think it's fine if they come at a slight gameplay disadvantage compared to a well-crafted multi-figure army.

You also have to think that a lot of players do like to play random mish-mashes of units like picking 3 random 200 point figures. In that kind of gameplay, a Rodan balanced around being able to have 50/50 odds against highly efficient factions is going to come off as fairly overpowered, which will also lead to someone setting down the design and never wanting to use it again. We ultimately can't balance around every type of gameplay, but when it comes to people wanting to play a design there's an opposite end of the spectrum to what you're describing.

I think (and I find you and I tend to do this often), we're actually saying the same thing for the most part, just coming at it from opposite angles. Like you're not saying that all Kaiju ought to be hyper competitive, I'm not implying all Kaiju need to suck. But I also don't think they should be striving to be A/A+ tourney-level armies on their own.

But like...I think we're mostly talking design philosophy here, not the specifics of this design. I want to be clear that I don't think those tests show Rodan as horribly broken or anything. Your claim that Tornado's armies weren't ideal is valid, but I think it's possible that T's claim that Rodan is overpowered are also possibly true. Like I said, interested in more tests.

[Arkham]

What you're saying is fair, but I do think there's an aspect not covered yet, and that I think big 1000 point heroes especially, should feel like a big deal. They should feel like a boss, so to speak. Like a challenge. Not in the way that they're necessarily at a disadvantage, but it should feel like their army is up against something that takes their best foot forward to take on, much like is the case in the comics/media we're trying to capture. If you're up against Thanos with the gauntlet, Ultron, Darkseid w/ Parademons, Godzilla, Surtur, the Phoenix Force, Anti-Monitor, Brainiac etc. I feel it's perfectly thematic and reasonable to make sure that unit feels like a challenge rather than just any other army at that point value, within reason of course. So that's where we may differ.

I understand from your point of it requiring little thought to pick your 1 man army vs. what your opponent has to consider in terms of what they can then use against the possibility of facing them. That's fair, however, that's not exclusive to 1000 point units. If my opponent has Balder in his roster, that possibility has to be accounted for thus changes the way I assemble my team. If they have throwers and lava, that's gonna require me to think more than they do. If they have blob or Graviton on their roster, it's gonna make me have to think more on who to potentially use.

This can be said about all sorts of units, so I don't quite agree that that aspect is such a positive, that it should come at a gameplay disadvantage for the 1000 point unit. They already have their own natural disadvantages such as not being able to spread out their Order Markers for the unpredictability factor, nor the safety against figures that can remove them. As well as they have no excess wounding saving them on botched defenses against big hits, such as Thing with a full Clobberin' Time obliterating a 2 Life Batman with an attack of 8 skulls, is far less critical to your team than it is if he hits Godzilla/Surtur/Kong with that attack.

Regardless, we're getting waaaaay too far off into the weeds on something we don't even really need to feel the same about. The point here, is that it was being suggested that Rodan should be 700+ points because he stomped 2 armies that were less than ideal. 700+ points implies Rodan is worth at least 2 of Satanus, who has similar stats as Rodan. Of course they have different powers, but you're going to have a hard time getting me to believe his powers and slightly better stats are worth a whole 'nother Satanus.

Anyway, here's a game just for funzies:

Army Test 1
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units:
Rodan (600)
vs.
Satanus(350), Oracle(110), Diablo(140) (600)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
4 wounds on Satanus. (+1 from height)
1 wound on Satanus. (+1 from height)

CYCLONIC DRIFT STREAMS:
8/11
1 wound on Diablo.
2 wounds on Diablo.
2 wounds on Satanus.
1 wound on Satanus, kills him.
1 wound on Oracle.
1 wound on Oracle.

VOLCANIC COMBUSTION:
7/11
1 wound on Diablo.
1 wound on Satanus.
1 wound on Diablo. (after taking LEA)
1 wound on Satanus.
1 wound on Diablo, kills him.
1 wound on Oracle.
1 wound on Oracle, kills her.

HYPERSONIC FLYING:
R1T1: Adds 5 to his move.

Notes:
R1: Satanus with the help of Oracle puts 3 wounds on Rodan(4+1 skulls vs. 2 shields). Diablo prevents Rodan from doing anything.

R2: Satanus with the help of Oracle puts 2 wounds on Rodan(4+1 skulls vs. 3 shields). Satanus puts 2 wounds on Rodan(4 skulls vs. 2 shields). Rodan takes a wound from LEA.

R3: Oracle puts a wound on Rodan thanks to her X, but is killed by his Volcanic Combustion.


Rodan with 10/11 wounds. (1 life)

Close matchup that could have gone either way had the dice fallen slightly different. Satanus had to fight from underneath as Rodan had height and Satanus would have to waste a turn to walk around to try and get to equal height, so he just fought from height disadvantage.

------------------------------

And then I did one with Rodan vs. 2 Satanus'. 1 Satanus remained, with 2/9 wounds. Satanus did win the last round, if Rodan won the last round, only difference would be 2 more wounds on Satanus(so 4/9).

[MrNobody]

[Tornado]

If you were to grade all possible 600 point armies, what grade would you give each of the armies used so far to test against Rodan?
In eight years when Rodan is up for strategic review, how low of a grade would Rodan need for you to be disappointed?

[IAmBatman]

I was told there wouldn't be a test.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Tornado

If you were to grade all possible 600 point armies, what grade would you give each of the armies used so far to test against Rodan?
In eight years when Rodan is up for strategic review, how low of a grade would Rodan need for you to be disappointed?

SP updated to 800.

[Tornado]

I think 800 is excessive. I would try 700 if you do not want to tweak the design. Here is what I got with your army builds. Pretty close.
I see why you tested against Dark Phoenix. They are very similar but DP has a little range and can fit in places Rodan cannot.
I think at 700 you can still win against top teams.

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Rodan

Army Test
Map: City Park.
Units: Rodan(600) vs. Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Jewel [600].
[spoiler]
Game 1: Rodan 6/11wounds
Normal: 4 on Iron Fist

CDS: 4/4
VC: 5/7


Game 2: Jewel 3/5wounds
Normal: 2 on Cage(blank out), 2 on Fist, 3 on Fist

CDS: 5/16

VC: 4/13

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: City Park.
Units: Rodan(600) vs. Dark Phoenix(490), Oracle(110) (600).
[spoiler]
Game 1: Rodan 9/11wounds
Normal: 4 on Jean(blank out)

CDS: 3/8

VC: 4/7


Game 2: Rodan 7/11wounds

Normal: 4 on Jean,

CDS: 4/9

VC: 2/2

[Arkham]

If you think 700, 700 it is.

[IAmBatman]

710 or I rage quit the group.

(kidding ... obviously, I hope ).

[Arch-vile]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Rodan

Army Test
Map: Sewer Labyrinth
Units: Rodan (700) VS Android 17, Android 18, Krillin (700)

Spoiler Alert!

The Androids try and disengage and use their special attacks to limit the wounds they take from Volcanic Combustion. Rodan’s surprisingly a bit slow with 5 move and a double base - he finds it tricky to fly over 17 unless he uses Hypersonic Flying. The Androids put 3 wounds onto Rodan before he takes out Android 18. Krillin brings Rodan to 6 wounds before falling. Rodan’s dice falter at the end of the match, and Android 17 takes him out with an adjacent attack at the end of the game.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Android 17 (2 wounds) wins.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sewer Labyrinth
Units: Rodan (700) VS TMNT (700)

Spoiler Alert!

The TMNT deal a massive 6 wounds to Rodan in round 1, but end up taking 5 wounds from Rodan in return from Volcanic Combustion. Rodan disengages from 3 turtles, taking all 3 wounds, and dealing a return 3 wounds to various turtles from Volcanic Combustion. Rodan then uses Cyclonic Drift Streams to deal 2 wounds to Leo and throw him to low ground, then kills Leo with his normal attack. The end-of-round Volcanic Combustion kills Mikey and wounds Raph.

Rodan wins initiative, and uses Hypersonic Flying plus the “X” to kill Raph and throw Don to low ground. Rodan then blocks Don’s attack and kills him.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Rodan (9 wounds) wins.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Fun design. Volcanic Combustion is by far the most impactful power - it’s like a more powerful Aliens’ Acidic Blood. It’s definitely way better against melee armies because of this. Hypersonic Flying and Cyclonic Drift Streams were useful powers and definitely felt thematically like Rodan.

700 points seems fine, both of my games were reasonably close.

[IAmBatman]

Nice tests. 700 is looking good.