#1201
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Re: Sports: NFL
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Besides, the Vikings finished the year 5-1, and were picked by many to win their division BEFORE Favre signed on. This was a good team without Favre, and it's a good team with him. No shocker. Quote:
If you look at advanced rate stats like pro-football-reference's adjusted net yards per pass attempt, or football outsider's defense-adjusted yards above replacement, Manning looks as good or better than Favre. And even in the stats where Favre leads the league, Manning is top three, while Favre is much farther down the list in all the stats that reflect accumulated value. Quote:
And again, insofar as he has improved the numbers/performance of players, this basically amounts to rewarding Favre for replacing Gus Frerotte. It's not Brees's or Manning's or Brady's fault that they didn't yank their teams around and fake retire so they could sign somewhere else. I think it's hard to argue that guys like Garcon and Collie would be budding stars in the league with just anybody throwing to them. Watch Manning's TD throw to Garcon from the Pats game and then try to tell me that Manning isn't making him look good. Quote:
ETA: to whoever anon-repped me: no, there isn't anything I don't break down and analyze in painstaking detail. Well, not my family, but that's about it. Last edited by dok; November 24th, 2009 at 12:47 PM. |
#1202
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Re: Sports: NFL
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That thought had occured to me while I was saying 'what is he waiting for?' to myself. The kicker may very well have been waiting for the whilstle to blow for the timeout and while waiting tensed a bit. A nice little mind game there if that is what happened. Yeah, OT would have put me in bed far later than I should have been, but it still would have been fun... well, maybe until this morning. -insert signature here- |
#1203
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Re: Sports: NFL
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Nope, just pointing out that there are a bunch of important stats that come into play - I noticed that you left out the TD-to-INT ratio and so it bore mentioning. It's not my fault if the stats make Favre look good - Favre makes Favre look good. Quote:
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Finally and for the record, I actually really like Peyton Manning - he's incredible. But that doesn't mean I can't admit that Favre is slowly but surely building up a great argument for himself to win the MVP...IF things continue along the same progression (of course). |
#1204
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Re: Sports: NFL
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I admit that I found the off-season Favre obsession of the last three or four years really, really annoying, and I do think Favre did a lot of things to create that media frenzy. But it's not like he killed anybody. It's not a big deal. Favre is a first-ballot HOFer, and is having a fantastic capping season (or two?) to his incredible career. I just happen to think that he's about the 5th most valuable player in the league this year. That doesn't seem like a big insult to me. Quote:
The "stirring the pot" emoticon was supposed to denote that I was just bringing up silly controversy and didn't really take it seriously. Maybe I should have used the "wink" emoticon in stead? Quote:
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Stats aren't everything, I agree - especially in a sport like football where each player's success is, to a great degree, dependent on what other players on the field are doing. Take the Indy/Baltimore game last week. - On their first drive, Manning threw a simply incredible deep ball to Pierre Garcon. Garcon basically ran in a straight line deep, and the ball hit him in stride, just beyond the safety help. A perfect throw by any reasonable standard. - After Garcon was tackled inside the 10, the Colts had first and goal. Manning throws a fade to Dallas Clark. Frankly, Manning overthrew the pass a little bit. But Clark makes a simply incredible catch, reaching up with ONE hand and spearing the ball right on the point. Now, by the stats, both of these are just completions. The stats don't know that the first pass was an amazing play by Manning and just a good one by Garcon, while the second was just an average throw by Manning and an amazing catch by Clark. So, long story short... yes, stats don't tell the whole story. In order to really judge players you need to watch games. But stats are an important part of the story. They tell you a lot. Not everything, but a lot. Quote:
None of these things make him the MVP, though, because other QBs have done more. Quote:
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This is the unquantifiable, non-stats stuff, but personally, I give Manning a bigger share of the credit for the success of his team's passing game than any other QB. YMMV. Personally, I think voting for someone other than Peyton Manning for MVP is a sign of sportswriter boredom. Call it the Jordan effect (or the Charles Barkley/Karl Malone effect). |
#1205
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Re: Sports: NFL
Okay, fair enough...I must admit that your post rubbed the wrong way in a stressful week for me (5th surgery for my son yesterday).
And I'll be the first to say that Favre is doing great but probably not good enough for MVP at this point. The Colts without Manning probably are doomed - I'm not sure we'd be as bad off without Favre. |
#1206
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Re: Sports: NFL
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Seems like a silly question, but the answer has been "no" in past MVP voting (across all major sports leagues). Leagues and voters want to give the MVP to an impact player or someone who does something new in a given year (like turn a team around). They don't want to just hand the award to the same one or two guys every year. You didn't see the NBA hand Micheal Jordan the MVP every year even though he clearly was the MVP once he hit his stride. If we really went by the strict interpretation of MVP, I'd have a hard time handing the award to anyone besides Brady or Manning for the past several years (and for the foreseeable future). But the NFL isn't going to do that (though they will get one every now and again) because it's not what the award is really about. By a strict definition, Favre is not the most valuable player in the league, but his impact is clearly noticeable in both wins and the attitude of the Vikings. He's taken a good team and turned it into a powerhouse and that's the kind of stuff that wins MVP awards. Dignan's Maps - Dignan's Multiplayer Maps
Competitive Unit Congress "It doesn't matter how you find the pot of gold, all that matters is that you beat the leprechauns". |
#1207
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Re: Sports: NFL
I agree completely, Dignan. It's true across all leagues. The closest to an "honest" voting pool is probably the NL MVP voters, who gave Bonds a bunch of MVPs late in his career despite the fact that most of them hated Bonds and suspected he was on steroids.
ETA: and, as if on cue, Puhols wins his (well-deserved) third MVP. For whatever reason, NL MVP voters are immune to the "let's vote for someone new" effect. artemiscorso, I'm not going to spend a block of time responding to that post, since it doesn't seem like you've thought through that argument. But, if you insist, give a consistent standard for what the MVP means to you, and then try to argue why five or six QBs had better seasons by those standards. Good luck with that. Last edited by dok; November 24th, 2009 at 06:37 PM. |
#1208
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Re: Sports: NFL
Actually, Manning didn't really deserve the MVP last year, as there were 5 or 6 quarterbacks who had better seasons. Then Manning lost again in the playoffs which he has a habit of(which has nothing to do with the Mvp award, I was just saying). I think the reverse was true last year that they just gave it to somebody on a name basis. As far as this year Manning is actually having an MVP worthy year, but so are Drew Brees and Brett Favre. If the Titans had a little better record you would also have to consider Chris Johnson for the award.
CORVUS |
#1209
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Re: Sports: NFL
...anyway, I'm very glad to see that the Saints will be going against the Patriots. Time for a test that Manning beat earlier.
Also, can't wait to see Culpepper go against the Packers. Should be fun to watch. |
#1210
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Re: Sports: NFL
It would be nice for someone to start a Brett Favre thread or an NFL MVP thread 2009-2010. That way this can be a thread about the NFL in general.
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#1211
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Re: Sports: NFL
Now don't be a bitter Browns fan just because they're having a rough year. :P Let us Viking fans enjoy our fun season (so far, anyway). Part of that is the inimical Mr. Favre.
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#1212
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Re: Sports: NFL
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since the browns aren't in the playoff picture, i am rooting for the Vikes in the NFC and the Colts in the AFC. |
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