Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers (+D1 & GC '10)

[1Mmirg]

Just a quick question for you:

You imply that the core of Ranged Vydar army includes Q9, Raelin, KMA, and Laglor. Then basically all other Vydar armies go to Tier 2, under the non-KMA armies, at least, as I read your groupings.

Where would you put other variations of the Q9/Raelin army, ones without KMA and Laglor? Such as the Q9/Raelin/Microcorp/Deathreavers army. Is that Tier 2, in your opinion?

Or is there a Tier 1, Q9/Raelin core army as well--in your view?

(Or did I just miss this in all the other armies listed?)

[EDIT: Just noticed that your A+ Junk army kind of fits this, since it is Q9, Rae, and Reavers--the question is that I've seen some great armies that play with this, adding in Q10, Microcorp, Nilf, Kaemon, Cyprien, etc. Many are A units, so it could just be an "A Junk amry" I suppose, but I think the Microcorp are a bit lower and my question is where do you believe is a Q9/Rae and/or Reaver core? If so, where do you put it? Just curious.]

BTW, to your other question, about missing armies or lowering armies, I'd say your "Don't believe the hype" takes up the slack pretty well. And, as you say, the Tier 2 armies have strong potential but also big holes, so it will always be hard to decide to move these around. Tier 2 is huge, but appropriately so--as you have said with Reavers or Raelin, lots of good units gain enough umph to be competitive at least some times.

Anyhow just my thoughts.

[Jexik]

I believe that Q9/Raelin/KMA/Laglor is the best Vydar ranged core possible. It's really good, almost perfect. Unlike the Elven Wizards, each part is very powerful in and of itself.

People will usually take out Raelin first. While they're doing that, Q9 is killing your rats or the KMA are sniping whatever they want to from 9 range. Laglor's boost is huge here, and on some maps, you won't even need to adjust Raelin or Laglor in the opening round to start taking shots with the Krav.

If (this is actually a pretty big if) they take out Raelin, they'll probably want to deal with the Krav. Once 1 or 2 Krav are dead, you can go nuts with Q9 and kill whatever's left.

If they somehow manage to kill Q9, you've still got Laglor left. I'd say he's 80-90% as good in the cleanup role as Kaemon Awa is. He's rock solid.

Changing it at all is a significant change in either its power, or how it plays.

One of the armies that beat my Vanilla Ice in Day 1 of the Championship this year was this one played by Eirikr:

4x Deathreavers 160
Major Q9 340
KMA 440
Raelin 520

I'd classify this as a Rat-Podge, or maybe even A+ Junk before I'd call it Vydar Ranged. It was on my list of 25 brainstormed armies,* and I called it Douchenozzle. It's still a Tier 1 army, no doubt about it.

He had more rats than me, and better defense. Despite the fact that I won the initiative in the first round, an order marker gaffe I made cost me the control of the fixed Attack glyph. His rats and Krav scared the crap out of me, but one lucky shot of 5v5 from Q9 at 8 range (4 skulls v. 0 shields) against my Nilfheim took the wind out of my sails and gave me no chance of winning.

I'm not sure if a Microcorp army would be as good, but the MCA are one squad that I'm wondering if I'm underestimating... but they can be really map dependent. 2 attack sucks if you can't get height. (To answer your question, I think that Raelin, MCA, Rats, and Q9 would just be a rat podge variant. Pretty much anything with 2-3x Rats and ranged would be a rat podge. Call it Three R's if you like: Raelin, Rats, and Ranged).

*Note that Vanilla Ice, or "Stingers/Nilf" was the first on my list. The 1st and 2nd place armies at the tourney were also on it. I didn't even make anyone sign an NDA.

[1Mmirg]

Thanks for your thoughts. The army that I have enjoyed most is the Rae/Q9/Q10/Reavers (at x2 you have 490, add Isamu for 500, Marcu for 510, or both for 520; at x3 you have 530, again add Isamu for the 540 that has become popular, etc.). It is a fun army, very solid (each unit definitely holds its weight), just limited by being centered around two somewhat redundant double-base units. Nonetheless, a kick to play and I've found competitive with most everything.

Always enjoy your work, Jexik, can't rep you again, but thanks for sharing your insights. Excellent, always excellent.

BTW, noting this wasn't in the Injex and feeling it is an excellent look at the state of competitive play currently (and showcases just how much variety exists, even at a competitive level, in HS), I added it to the Index, plus a few others things. Thanks!

[Jexik]

Thanks for the input, coastal guys.

As for the 'luck' to beat better players idea, that was one of the appealing aspects to me about Red Wings of Death for GenCon. 3x Minions + Zelrig could have been a deadly force to deal with in Day 2. It doesn't have much synergy, but it kills Q9 and Mass quickly. What more do you need?

I just didn't like the lack of control I felt with the dice even when I felt I was making the 'right' decisions. This was one army that I didn't share outside of a few people I knew, and chickened out of playing.

[Jexik]

I thought about Blade Gruts. I know it's odd, but I think they're significantly worse than the Heavy Gruts in today's tournaments. When there's such a clear alternative in so many of these tier 2 armies, I don't know when I'd say, "it's Blade Grut time!"

1. Point totals are outpacing hex limits, so you can't get the right number of them out there. If they've got 5x Mass, and you've got 4 or 5x Blade Gruts, you're in trouble.

2. Unless you're in a situation where the extra move matters (which I could probably see people making the case for), Heavy Gruts have much better output from their turns. 4 attacks of 3 > 4 attacks of 2.

3. One thing I've been stressing pretty often in this and my efficiency article is the importance of high defense. Just as the Knights' 4 defense and only 4 move without disengage > 5 move with disengage and 3 defense in the heavy gruts, the Blade Gruts are tough to justify, even with their low cost. Point cost doesn't matter if you die before you can engage your foe.

Show me a Blade Grut army or two at least taking top 50% (or even top 2/3) in a couple tournaments and I'll reconsider. If people don't even bring them to tournaments, that tells you a lot, I think. I've faced Dünd more often than I've faced Blade Gruts.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Unknown Guy played this and got 2nd at NHSD 2007 in Dallas of all places, losing only to Revdyer's Sentinels 'n Mass
5x Zombies 300
2x Shades of Bleakwoode

How cool is that?

FYI, "unknown guy" is Aahzmandius. This was the first NHSD even that I attended and it was awesome to see the zombies make it to the championship. I actually watched a lot of Aahz's matches that day (when I had time), he's a great player who brings fun and cool armies to the events. This year he had Greeks I believe at NHSD.

[killercactus]

Also, I think Mechabeast has a tourney report somewhere with Zombies. I believe he played Zombies x5, Krav, Raelin, Marcu at 500 points and took 4th out of 18 or something. His only loss was to Q9 on a snow map, where all snow and ice was heavy. I think it was the tourney where I played Sudema - I wonder what Tier she's in?

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by Dignan

FYI, "unknown guy" is Aahzmandius. This was the first NHSD even that I attended and it was awesome to see the zombies make it to the championship. I actually watched a lot of Aahz's matches that day (when I had time), he's a great player who brings fun and cool armies to the events. This year he had Greeks I believe at NHSD.

Thanks, Dignan. I should have showed him more respect and looked it up. It's fixed now. I remember being very impressed by his performance with that army. I think he beat Rÿchean's 5x Stingers/2x Rats/Kaemon, right?

It's probably also worth noting that prior to that tourney, Sentinels were a mere B- in the power rankings. Revdyer's performances there and at GenCon convinced spider to bump them up to B+.

Which is why it's good to experiment. But Sudema?

Tier 11


This one goes to eleven
Runa 120
Sudema 260
Deadeye Dan 320
Hatamoto Taro 450

It would take an act of god to win a game with this, even in a Win-A-Wave.

[Rÿchean]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Thanks, Dignan. I should have showed him more respect and looked it up. It's fixed now. I remember being very impressed by his performance with that army. I think he beat Rÿchean's 5x Stingers/2x Rats/Kaemon, right?

Actually, you should show me more repsect and not post that I lost to someone I haven't even played in a tournament setting. I did lose to someone with magical hovering robots, though.

[NamibianScaper]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Tier 11


This one goes to eleven
Runa 120
Sudema 260
Deadeye Dan 320
Hatamoto Taro 450

It would take an act of god to win a game with this, even in a Win-A-Wave.

I don't know how Hatamoto got on this list... but replace him with Kee-Mo-Shi and Son and I will go 5-1 I'll place the order markers and he'll roll the 20s...

[Cleon]

How is Teir 3 coming together, Jexik? (If you are still working on it). Awesome thread by the way, I love discussions of strategy or accomplishments for recognizable tournament armies.

Plus reputation.

EDIT: I can't give you any more reputation just yet.

[Junge Roman]

Tier Eleven

Add DW7K for the WIN!